Berger VLD pencil through Elk in Cold?

[Hand Skills]

I've only shot a half dozen critters with VLDs. I've never had a pass through. Luckily there has always been massive internal damage. I've never drilled the tips but may start for insurance. What size bit is recommended for this?

Drill bit for bergers

what size wire drill bit are you using for 130 ar hybrid 140 vid hunting 156 eol 230 hybrid Appreciate the help.

www.longrangehunting.com

 

[big7fan]

I've only shot a half dozen critters with VLDs. I've never had a pass through. Luckily there has always been massive internal damage. I've never drilled the tips but may start for insurance. What size bit is recommended for this?

I use .031. Works very well

 

[257Tony]

Have heard of the famous "Berger failures", never personally witnessed one. Generally speaking, I'd say 99.9% of "bullet failure" was actually poor shot placement.

Here's a Berger 180 in some really cold temps, at 525. No exit, and you can see how fast that Bull dies.

 

[Pdvdh]

Burgers work best if you load them butt end forward.
Load them tip forward and you get FMJ performance, or hamBurgers.

 

[RockyMtnMT]

Maybe a conversation for another thread. I think there is something to how animals react to a shot in very cold temperatures compared to warmer temps. I think they don't bleed out as quickly leading to slower death, due to the body conserving blood to the vital organs. There is a term for this and I can't remember what it is.

 

[Texis]

I've only taken one WT doe at 285 with 140 VLD Hunters / 2940 muzzle. DRT, massive internal damage.. I hate hearing about these "fails" as these are very accurate for me, and I'm about to take them mule deer hunting!

 

[orkan]

Maybe a conversation for another thread. I think there is something to how animals react to a shot in very cold temperatures compared to warmer temps. I think they don't bleed out as quickly leading to slower death, due to the body conserving blood to the vital organs. There is a term for this and I can't remember what it is.

I've heard about this, but can't say I've witnessed it. Shot a doe at 150yds with a 110 Atip this past week. Double lung with exit. It was -5f. Died in about 3 seconds. With wind chill, it was in the -20 territory. Blood froze within a couple seconds when exposed. The steam was so bad when I split her rib cage, I could hardly see to get the job done. lol

Whether they bleed and it all spills out, or the entrance/exit freeze shut instantly, and they bleed out internally... they still bleed out. Shooting big game in brutal cold temps is something the folks up in alaska should know all about. Perhaps some of them could chime in.

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[laker]

I've only taken one WT doe at 285 with 140 VLD Hunters / 2940 muzzle. DRT, massive internal damage.. I hate hearing about these "fails" as these are very accurate for me, and I'm about to take them mule deer hunting!

You will be fine. Google any bullet you want and you will find failures

 

[laker]

I've only taken one WT doe at 285 with 140 VLD Hunters / 2940 muzzle. DRT, massive internal damage.. I hate hearing about these "fails" as these are very accurate for me, and I'm about to take them mule deer hunting!

Whitetail doe 487 yards. No penciling here. She made a 10 yard circle and tipped over
Entrance

Exit

 

[FEENIX]

You will be fine. Google any bullet you want and you will find failures

Yep, despite some companies' claim, there is no such thing as the magic bullet that fits all situations.

 

[Fishermen0105]

I have killed 10 wild pigs, 2 white tails and a mule deer with a 3006 168 vld and have never seen penciling in those. My dad shot 2 elk with 210 vlds and they died right there. Average traveled distance after shot was probably 5 ft with catastrophic internal damage. I've also killed 7 wild pigs, 1 mule deer and a white tail with .277 150 vlds from a Kimber Montana as well with similar results. My brother also killed a nice mule deer with a 168 vld that fell instantly to the shot. I like vlds because they typically drop right there at least in my experience.

 

[Fiftydriver]

I've now had two experiences in cold temps (around 5 degrees Fahrenheit) where I believe a Berger VLD Hunting bullet (7mm 180gr) appears to have penciled through an elk.

First occasion: Last year, a mature cow through one shoulder, out the other armpit. I did recover this cow, and verified this. I was so cold and tired I didn't take a picture, but it was for sure a pencil through because there was no meat damage surrounding the entrance and exit. 320 yards.

Second occasion: This year, a mature bull I never recovered, but watched (and heard the tell tale sound) armpit impact maybe 3-4" above heart, perfectly broadside, at 294 yards. No blood anywhere to be found within 1/2 mile radius in fresh white snow.

I load these rounds myself, and have been doing so for long enough to know for certain they are going the correct velocity out of the muzzle. Both of these bullets were going ~2940 out of the muzzle, +or- 30fpm at worst, though both of them were from load developments that were averaging 15-20fpm extreme spreads. I cannot remember the last time I saw an ES greater than 40fpm. This isn't a velocity issue.

I have killed 5 elk, 2 antelope, and 4 deer, 1 bear with these same exact loads, but all in warmer temps bottoming out around 15 degrees. Every other one has expanded correctly, devastatingly.

I do visually check each bullet to make sure that visually there are no obstructions prior to loading my magazine, but I do leave them in the magazine for up to a few days at a time, and I don't run a drill bit like I know some people do.

1. Has anyone else personally experienced this in cold temps with the VLD H's?
2. Maybe with all the hiking around, I'm getting some snow or ice in the tips of the bullet? Could that prevent expansion?
3. I know some people have had tips close on bullets in a magazine, but these are the first bullets out of the magazine.

I'm thinking of switching to the 175gr Elite Hunters, as I'm guessing the thinner ogive and larger cavity in the tip would give tip these over the edge to expand properly in the cold. But I've also used these VLD Hunts for a few years and I love them, and have successfully killed a lot of other animals with them. I love the terminal performance when they expand.

Is the 2940 fps velocity confirmed in cold temps? If not, you could easily be well under 2900 fps. Running the numbers, at 300 yards your down into the 2500 fps range. There should be some expansion but likely not dramatic. Not sure why the cold would have any effect on terminal performance but it can make a huge difference on internal ballistic performance.

 

[Vol1975]

Can't speak for your fails but if your not checking the tip for a proper opening and depth that may be your problem. Their has been enough data from past members to show this has been a problem.
I have shot maybe 40 ish deer with mine with no problem but I check and clean the tip. Only problem I've sorta had is if I open the tip up to much they seem to expand more violet at closer diatance. Just my 2 cents.
with that this past year I switch to the 175eldx. And been happy. 3 down so far but good results on deer. 2875 fps.
elk wise i have Not usd enough 7mm to comment on with berger. My experience with elk is 30 CaL only.
I use 200 accubond out to 500 yards and if I want to shoot A little farther then I use berger 215.

 

[isaaccarlson]

Agreed! They do not need an exit wound to be effective, and one of the reasons I use them as it reduces the risk of hitting anything behind the target that you do not intend to shoot.

All this talk about dumping energy inside the animal is exactly why I use a 22-250, but when you talk about it, people get in your face about not using enough gun or how the bullets explode.... I like a nice open tip or a soft point. Drive em fast enough and they do incredible damage. Anything going 3000+ fps is going to wreck an elk's day if put in the right place. My brother has had bullets pencil through deer, and those had a very small tip opening. I think the tiny tip openings on some bullets get forced closed way too easy. Look at how much bullet is wedging the tip closed when it hits something. You need to get material inside the tip to open it, meaning a bigger opening is better.

Not exactly apples to apples here, but I have seen 30-50 cal airgun slugs that look like beer steins because the entire front is a giant hollow cup. They open up to several times their diameter and dump most/all of their energy in the animal. High velocity rounds don't need to be that open, but I think a slightly bigger hole is better than dinky tiny. You don't need the very best bc to kill critters, in fact I find the opposite to be true.