Smokeless Muzzleloader

[Ultimatepredator]

I would definitely travel a couple states to compete in LR SML match and pretty sure we could get some of our other people with these to come with us ..I'm in Ohio and only a few ranges around here even go to 1000 without driving 3-4 hours.

 

[ENCORE]

Encore-
If they want to attract more shooter than they will have to change with the times. They can still keep the traditional muzzleloaders, black power, paper patch and round balls. They just need to have a class for all shooters if they want to grow the sport. If not they will just be part of history in a few decade, unfortunately.

Agreed. But also it takes those of us that would like to shoot SML to get involved in things like this next weekend's shoot, and while doing so, bring up SML. We also have to understand and accept the fact that there would be rules which we wouldn't like. The main issue would be, like every other place, is their range is limited to 500yds.

IIRC didn't they try to get a 1k match going over on Hank's and it didn't materialize for lack of a range available?

The MTC in Lake City would be an EXCELLENT facility to host a SML shoot. Shooters would be required to shoot prone and bring a table for loading. It's a really nice facility.

 

[2buffalo]

My apologies for being short and calling your love BS. I had a bad day.

I do feel that smokeless muzzle loaders (and really any ML should only be allowed to be packed with so much BP substitute per grain weight projectile) should not be legal for hunting.

It goes against the very spirit of muzzleloading and it is simply just not fair to have a season dedicated to a traditional style of rifle, but there are those that bend the rules as far as possible to gain an edge or to make money on that product they make. These things might as well be considered center-fire rifles.

That is my opinion. I'll remove myself from your thread now

Your point?

Should they make a law against compound bows? Should they make a law stating you can only use the first center fire cartridge ever invented? Should they outlaw rifling in a barrel? How far would you like to go?

 

[Dragoon300]

I'm about 3.5hrs away from MTC (Hubbard Lake). If I'm not mistaken, which I very well could be, you can't shoot there without being a member???? If they had an invitational, I'd show.
The Alpena Sportsman's Club has a 600yd range, which is where I spend most of my time.

I'd say you are closer than that, they are about 10 miles south of Kalkaska. Join up

 

[Tac-O]

Your point?

Should they make a law against compound bows? Should they make a law stating you can only use the first center fire cartridge ever invented? Should they outlaw rifling in a barrel? How far would you like to go?

Point being that if you have the ability to shoot x distance to 1000 yards or maybe further, then it should only be allowed in the rifle season... Even if you load it from the muzzle. If this type of ML was legal everywhere in ML seasons, it would basically become another rifle season. Further stressing game due to hunter presence, increasing non lethal hits or unrecovered game rates, and increasing harvest numbers.

There's only so much stress we can put on animals every year and keep the population healthy. There's only so much game the land can hold and keep a healthy ecosystem.

I also don't agree with hunting game from 1000 yards. 500 is really long for me.

You mention bows... Cross bows mostly are not legal in the same archery season unless you have a disability. Where they are legal for anyone, many times they are not allowed in the archery season. I think cross bows shouldn't be legal to anyone that doesn't have to have one to shoot a bow. Harvest rates with compound bows are still so low that I don't think there's currently much of an argument for compound bows being a problem for archery season in consideration of trade bow hunters. Also, the difference in possible harvest distance for these two is only about 80 yards. Compare that to 50-200 yards for a trad ML vs 500-100 for a smokeless inline.

Anyway, hope that answers your question. I'm going to not respond to this thread because I don't need to derail it to an off topic debate

 

[ENCORE]

I'd say you are closer than that, they are about 10 miles south of Kalkaska. Join up

Probably closer to 2.5hrs one way. It takes me 1:45 to get to Grayling. There's at least one person, if not two, that have cabins here at the lake, yet live down below someplace that are members.
What kind of issues would there be with shooting muzzleloaders at the MTC? Rumor has it they're not eager to have muzzleloaders on the range???

 

[Dragoon300]

Probably closer to 2.5hrs one way. It takes me 1:45 to get to Grayling. There's at least one person, if not two, that have cabins here at the lake, yet live down below someplace that are members.
What kind of issues would there be with shooting muzzleloaders at the MTC? Rumor has it they're not eager to have muzzleloaders on the range???

Well, I don't know about that, but the senior partner Clare Ward would be able to answer all of your questions. Email him at: [email protected]
I would think he would be interested in these new SML's when he sees that are very capable out to 1k yards. I do not know of any rules against them at MTC. They do have several organizations that hold matches there, I do not know what the arrangements are, but if you contact him I am sure he will be happy to let you know what needs to happen.

 

[ENCORE]

Well, I don't know about that, but the senior partner Clare Ward would be able to answer all of your questions. Email him at: [email protected]
I would think he would be interested in these new SML's when he sees that are very capable out to 1k yards. I do not know of any rules against them at MTC. They do have several organizations that hold matches there, I do not know what the arrangements are, but if you contact him I am sure he will be happy to let you know what needs to happen.

Message sent. You in?

 

[Dragoon300]

Message sent. You in?

Sure, I would be interested in helping out if needed.

I'm in the Grand Rapids area. It takes me about 2-1/2 hours to get there too.

 

[ENCORE]

Sure, I would be interested in helping out if needed.

I'm in the Grand Rapids area. It takes me about 2-1/2 hours to get there too.

Ok, now what do we do?

We would be open to it depending on the actual event. Are you looking to use our 1000 yard KD targets, the same 6x6ft cardboard bullseye that the F-Class use? Or our steel targets?

What is the event format that you are requesting, is it set up as a formal competition or a free for all? Are you the match director, if not who is?

Is your group part of the Michigan Rifle and Pistol Association?


Clare Ward
Director of Operations
Marksmanship Training Center
100% Veteran owned and operated.

 

[Dragoon300]

Ok, now what do we do?

We would be open to it depending on the actual event. Are you looking to use our 1000 yard KD targets, the same 6x6ft cardboard bullseye that the F-Class use? Or our steel targets?

What is the event format that you are requesting, is it set up as a formal competition or a free for all? Are you the match director, if not who is?

Is your group part of the Michigan Rifle and Pistol Association?


Clare Ward
Director of Operations
Marksmanship Training Center
100% Veteran owned and operated.

Who ever is interested in this type of event needs to get together and decide these things.

I would suggest getting a realistic head count.

Figure out what type of targets are desired?

There are UKD steel targets on the range, however given the velocities and energy these rifles are capable of, I would suggest that only the big bore 50 cal rated 18x18 steel targets at 300, 550, 680 and 1054 yards should be used.

They have the 1000 yard target stands for NRA F class, I do not know if the range owns the hit sensor system the F class guys use or not. If not, people can work the pits scoring and pulling targets up / down. Possibly some of the F class people that run their matches could be persuaded to help.

There will need to be RO's to monitor safety.

Event type?
Competition?
Prizes?
Sight in and testing?

There is going to take a fair amount of effort, time and money involved to make this happen.

The other way is to have interested individuals buy a membership to MTC. A one year membership is $300, while it may seem high, you can't find this kind of place to shoot everywhere, and you can use it for a whole year. There is a military and law enforcement discount available. Members can use the range during operating hours anytime it is not being used for scheduled events. There is also secondary 1000 yard range for use when the main range is tied up. This is a very nice place to shoot, and the staff and instructors are first rate!
I highly recommend interested people buy memberships then schedule a weekend to all get together and shoot informally. That's the less expensive easy way.

 

[Scott E Ames]

Buckeye 68 is correct,3900 fps with a 353 grain Labradar verified… I personally have shot his rifle and is a true beast… I personally own 8 SML with one being a .40 caliber shooting larger doses of N560 in 3260's in velocity.. my best was 8 shots 5 in group at 1000 yards verify by Hillbill and John Hakes spotting for me .another on a Bat-CT action 1.350 straight in a .45 in McMillan LRB stock shooting a 325 Pittman consistently at 3140's
The one I hunt with is .45 I hold the Kentucky challenge range record at 300 yards of .334 shooting a 325 Pittman at 3085 fps
maybe off the subject some but marks gun is no joke. It shoots tiny tiny groups and myself personally wish ranges would hold more 1000 yard for us guys that like it to outer extremes
Just saying

What kind of starting loads are you all using with the slower powders?
When I started I was given loads for IMR 3031, Benchmark and IMR 4198. I would like to try slower powders as I don't think they will pressure out as quickly but have never seen any loads listed.

 

[slsak]

Does shotgun and mz not fit and the same category ? But ... Butttt i guess the old saying is true. If everyone thought the same it be a boring place !!..

LoL a bit of hyperbole to illustrate a point.

 

[buckeye68]

What kind of starting loads are you all using with the slower powders?
When I started I was given loads for IMR 3031, Benchmark and IMR 4198. I would like to try slower powders as I don't think they will pressure out as quickly but have never seen any loads listed.

Starting load will depend on barrel, shank size, powder chamber and ignition system. All ignition systems are not equal even tho they make look the same.
With a 275-300 grain bullet I use IMR 4198 and H4198. 325-350 grain bullet I use H4895. 350-353 I use IMR7828 SSC.