HARPERC
Well-Known Member
We've heard this regarding wolves since the mid 1990's, can you point me to where it's solved the wolf problem?
Wolves poisoned in Oregon
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Where'd you get your numbers estimating 60,000 elk killed by wolves in Idaho?
Idaho Lefty
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Several Years ago, Idaho Fish & Game was trying to substanciate REASONS WHY, they should be, Legally Hunted ( Controlled ), in Idaho to the Federal Govm'nt and the Estimated Number of Dead Elk, THEN, was put at, 50,000, by our F & G. I added another 10,000 Estimated dead, since several years, had gone by. I might possibly be off, a couple of thousand Wolves, on the high side ? Idaho WAS, the Number 3, BEST Elk hunting state, in the USA,.. PRE- 1998 !
UN-less they Dynamite, the Dens and Poison them, like what, was done at, the turn of the Century, "we" will NEVER be, rid of them.
The IMPORTED, Canadian Tundra Wolves from, the Yukon Territory, are now in,.. Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, Oregon, Washington, Northern California and SOON to BE, IN,.. Colorado ! From what I understand, they are having Wolf "Problem's" eating Deer in Michigan and Minnesota.
I think they might be, the Original Strain of, Timber Wolves, tho ??? OR, they may have, migrated down from, Canada ( I'm NOT sure )
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birddog 68
Well-Known Member
From what I read they're already in Colorado and now they are still going to release more. And it's not just elk that they are eating, moose and deer numbers are way down. As Idaho Lefty stated these are not the wolves that inhabited the lower 48, these are much bigger.
Muddyboots
Well-Known Member
We now have wolves in LP of Michigan, confirmed by DNR by DNA of scat snd trail camera verification. We have a small huntable limited draw once in lifetime Elk herd in LP which one has to wonder what will happen once packs develop.
Biologist just don't seem to get or don't care how expansive wolves (plug in any animal) can be. Land areas are not "glass aquariums" with defined impenetrable boundaries. Wolves will naturally expand their ranges and its lunacy to think we can "manage" any free ranging population animal under any circumstance. This narcissistic arrogance is prevalent in virtually any so called game management program and is laughable at how "man" believes is in control of how nature behaves and evolves.
I often wonder if biologist need to be educated in "Chaos Theory" relative to game management.
"Small differences in initial conditions, such as those due to errors in measurements or due to rounding errors in numerical computation, can yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction of their behavior impossible in general.This can happen even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior follows a unique evolution and is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved. In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable."
MI DNR along with adjacent Lake Michigan border states seem to think this "aquarium" can be managed like a simple mass balance. Salmon, lake trout, steelhead, browns, etc populations ebb and flow in accordance to so many uncontrollable variables but yet we seem to think " my computer model" is in full control. We seem to think we have "supreme" control over species as if we put them here.
Add in politics and our game management narcissistic behavior becomes untenable which is the description of wolf management.
Biologist just don't seem to get or don't care how expansive wolves (plug in any animal) can be. Land areas are not "glass aquariums" with defined impenetrable boundaries. Wolves will naturally expand their ranges and its lunacy to think we can "manage" any free ranging population animal under any circumstance. This narcissistic arrogance is prevalent in virtually any so called game management program and is laughable at how "man" believes is in control of how nature behaves and evolves.
I often wonder if biologist need to be educated in "Chaos Theory" relative to game management.
"Small differences in initial conditions, such as those due to errors in measurements or due to rounding errors in numerical computation, can yield widely diverging outcomes for such dynamical systems, rendering long-term prediction of their behavior impossible in general.This can happen even though these systems are deterministic, meaning that their future behavior follows a unique evolution and is fully determined by their initial conditions, with no random elements involved. In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable."
MI DNR along with adjacent Lake Michigan border states seem to think this "aquarium" can be managed like a simple mass balance. Salmon, lake trout, steelhead, browns, etc populations ebb and flow in accordance to so many uncontrollable variables but yet we seem to think " my computer model" is in full control. We seem to think we have "supreme" control over species as if we put them here.
Add in politics and our game management narcissistic behavior becomes untenable which is the description of wolf management.
A cpl of years ago we were elk hunting in Northern New Mexico about 25 mile from the Colorado boarder and found 4 huge wolf tracks in fresh snow, going right through our camp one night. Later, while talking with game and fish, they denied that there were any wolves in that area (lies) we know what we saw. We figured that they wouldn't confirm it, because once its out that the wolves are the area, public outrage is going to far reaching, as that same federal forest land is used for cattle leases and summer grazing. They introduced the Mexican Wolf in the southern end of the state a few years ago and that generated huge controversy at the time.
SSS… every time….. Deer and Elk numbers are going to suffer and this is a direct result of Colorado's efforts as the Mexican wolves in the southern part of the state stay in the
…..
I wasn't referring to the wolf problem.
You forgot about DNA and fibers. They go full in on these things.
birddog 68
Well-Known Member
Montana. In one of its many bustling metropolises.
Wait...do you really live in Pennsylvania, like your profile says? Those Pennsylvania wolves been giving you a lot of trouble? I have multiple packs within 20 miles of my house. I didn't realize they made it that far east.
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