Changing components, could have been bad!

[Ross1147]

So, until I started reading this forum a few years ago I would say I was a novice Reloader at best. I would stay within published book loads and never really change much but COAL. I would use whatever brass I had (win / r-p / fed) and reload all to the same specs. Never really had pressure issues other than with one brand of brass from my 223 I picked up at a range. For some reason I always blew primers in that brass so I went through my stash and threw out all that had the same stamp.
Today, I'm a much different reloader, thanks in part to information on this site. I came across something today that really blew my mind. See, I knew swapping out components changed things, but I never imagined it would this much?

Both loads are using 54 grn RL15 with a 245 grn Shock Hammer seated at the same COAL in a 35 Whelen. I am switching from R-P brass to Lapua. Load components and results below.

R-P 30-06 brass, WLR primer, FL sized 3rd firing on brass, no crimp - 2613fps

Lapua 30-06 brass, F210M primer, 1st firing on brass, Lee FCD - 2433fps.

That's dang near 200fps slower just from changing primers and brass! My R-P loads are super hot and primers are very flat, but it shoots great. The Lapua shows zero pressure signs and shot pretty good at 250 yds today. Initially I thought I had to have screwed up my charges, but I pulled one of each and both were 54 grns. I decided to measure the internal volume of each and the lapua held 2.6 grns more.
Do y'all think just 2.6 grns internal volume, change in primer to F210M and crimping caused this large of a decrease? Good thing I didn't go the other way from Lapua to R-P, I bet I can push a full grain to 2 more in the lapua before I hit pressure!! Lesson here is to always back off a grain or 2 prior to switching something out!

Ryan

 

[Korhil78]

The primer probably didn't change too much but the 2.6 Gr of extra space in your Lapua brass made all The difference in the world.

 

[Ross1147]

Actually one thing I failed to mention is the R-P brass is .034" longer as well. If I would have trimmed it down to the same length as the Lapua the difference in volume would have been greater.

 

[J-B welder]

Could part of also have been that the Lapua was on its first firing and therefore some of the pressure went to fireforming it, as opposed to the R-P having two firings on it already? Would be interested to see if the velocity goes up on the second time around with the Lapua.

One other difference is the crimp vs. no crimp. How much do you think that could have affected velocity?

 

[MagnumManiac]

The neck length really makes no difference, it's the internal volume of the case below the neck that counts.
Winchester primers are really hot, so that would have contributed substantially.

Cheers.

 

[Ross1147]

Agreed neck length doesn't matter with internal powder volume, but I'm filling the case full of water to weigh the internal volume, so it does change the calculations when filled to the top with water. Guess I should have said 2.6 grn more H2O.

I have heard the winchesters are pretty hot, I may swap only primers to see what happens? It does seem to me that the win primers are softer and that's the only reason I switched. I've had issues with these in the past seeming to flatten before I expected pressure signs.

I'm leaving for a hunt Friday so don't really have time to test before. Im just going to run with the Lapua at 2433fps. ES over 4 shots was 6, SD of 2.4. Max range for this gun is really 300-350yds. It's not the best gun for the hunt, it is a short range gun with an LPVO Leupold VX-6HD 1-6x24 on it, but it's the last time I'm going to hunt the area in my life and its more of a sentimental thing. I inherited this gun from my grandpa when he passed in 2018 and he grew up hunting this zone. If I can take a deer with it the last year I hunt this state it'd mean a lot to me.

Ryan

 

[Bob Wright]

Agreed neck length doesn't matter with internal powder volume, but I'm filling the case full of water to weigh the internal volume, so it does change the calculations when filled to the top with water. Guess I should have said 2.6 grn more H2O.

I have heard the winchesters are pretty hot, I may swap only primers to see what happens? It does seem to me that the win primers are softer and that's the only reason I switched. I've had issues with these in the past seeming to flatten before I expected pressure signs.

I'm leaving for a hunt Friday so don't really have time to test before. Im just going to run with the Lapua at 2433fps. ES over 4 shots was 6, SD of 2.4. Max range for this gun is really 300-350yds. It's not the best gun for the hunt, it is a short range gun with an LPVO Leupold VX-6HD 1-6x24 on it, but it's the last time I'm going to hunt the area in my life and its more of a sentimental thing. I inherited this gun from my grandpa when he passed in 2018 and he grew up hunting this zone. If I can take a deer with it the last year I hunt this state it'd mean a lot to me.

Ryan

That's all that matters. Use the one that has the best ES. You don't have time to mess around. Go do this for the memories of your Grandpa.

 

[RYEWSKY25284]

Actually one thing I failed to mention is the R-P brass is .034" longer as well. If I would have trimmed it down to the same length as the Lapua the difference in volume would have been greater.

Not likely to have a big impact on the length.

 

[BradyT88]

I have heard the winchesters are pretty hot, I may swap only primers to see what happens? It does seem to me that the win primers are softer and that's the only reason I switched. I've had issues with these in the past seeming to flatten before I expected pressure signs.

Ryan

I don't have any experience with Winchester Rifle Primers, but in pistol primers Winchester are known for being very hard. When people start putting lighter triggers into their handguns they can start to get light primers strikes and these are often found on Winchester and CCI primers. The fix is to switch to Federal primers as they are much softer. In handguns I'm not comparing the flattening of them (I prefer not to see any flattening honestly because there is a fine line between safe and explosion in handguns, haha) so I don't know if it's that they are actually harder or just harder to ignite.

 

[Mike Matteson]

Measuring volume in a case. All the case length should be the same. Because you are going to the top of the neck. Otherwise you don't have a fair comparisons. In all the info I have read on case length, they needs to be the same length. Which I have move to do that. I place my case into a trimmer every time in my reloading process. The days of old I would check my case lengths to see that they were not over spec length. Trim what cases were long, and place them back into the group. So I had different lengths of case in my groups. It's all boils down to just how much work you want to do in your reloading process.

 

[ButterBean]

That's all that matters. Use the one that has the best ES. You don't have time to mess around. Go do this for the memories of your Grandpa.

X-2

 

[Deleted member 107796]

Actually one thing I failed to mention is the R-P brass is .034" longer as well. If I would have trimmed it down to the same length as the Lapua the difference in volume would have been greater.

.034" is a lot of difference IMO. I would say that the neck tension is different from one case to the other. I think just too many variables (primer, case, case length, crimp) were changed.

 

[SSgt G Cody]

We all salute Grandpa! GOD Bless Family! When changing or comparing loads, NEVER change more than one factor at a time!!! Primer, Powder, Length, Crimp, etc. Otherwise chaos ensues, and it means nothing!