Berger is coming out with a 329 grain 338 long range hunting bullet

[yobuck]

Its improved a lot actually. You have to look at agg records. Individual small groups are usually flukes, although 3"s are now not uncommon in HG. I only have records back to 2005 from the IBS, but the LG 10 match agg was 6.183" (10 5 shot groups) the HG agg was 7.499" ( 10 10 shot groups). Today those aggs are 3.794" and 5.337". A considerable improvement in only the last 15 years. If I could find records from the 80s Id guess they would be 2-3 times larger. So there has actually been a huge improvement.
What Im telling you about hits on rocks or clay birds are not as centered as you think. I sight in on small rock all the time and go directly to paper for group and its hard to get closer than .5 moa to the aim point. Thats just not a good enough zero to verify drops in my opinion. And hunters should care about measured groups, thats how you predict your hit %. If the rifle is not shooting well enough to hit the intended target consistently you should fix that before worrying about all the other stuff. Accuracy gets blown off by a lot of hunters, but I can tell you a really good shooting rifle will make you a lot better shooter. Just my opinion. But the fact is no matter what your doing, if your putting rounds down range and paying attention then your learning.

Well you should do just that and check the records.
And when you do you will find im correct.
in fact the first (official) 1000 yd 10 shot group record was about 7 3/4" shot in about 1970 at williamsport with a hunting gun, as most of them were back then.
Mind you im not saying there hasent been improvement, but i am saying it has been a very slow process.
As for the aggregate, you might just be confusing the 5 shot with the 10 shot.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I'm talking IBS. Light gun is 5 hg is 10. Those were the aggs I posted. Your talking individual groups. That's not how we base accuracy, it has to repeat. So look at the 6 and 10 match group aggs. Williamsport has those also. If you shoot enough groups there are bound to be small ones we care about what the rifle can do all year long. And yes if you follow those aggregates there has been huge improvements. I am sure no one here cares about this. If you want to know more about the aggs and why those single targets dont mean much reach out to me.

 

[MagnumManiac]

No one wants to believe me, I know Just humor me, put a target up near a rock at 1000 or farther if you want. Shoot at that rock a few times and have guys watch, everyone guess how the rifle is grouping, then put 3 on paper. Its so hard to judge and you always think its better. We shoot rocks or clay birds all the time to sight in then go to the target. I know how it fools you and I still think Im shooting them in the same hole on the dirt mound, then you put them on paper and reality sets in. I only keep saying this to hopefully help some one improve their system. Not to be rude.

This is exactly how my mates and I have set up our rifles, shoot at clay targets to get 'on' then shoot the targets for group.
I don't look at any group under 10 shots for data. This is also cheating yourself if you look at 5 or 3 shot groups. The statistics of said 3-5 **** group is too small to mean very much.
I am very happy with my 323g .338" solid CNC HBN coated bullet, but even with a 9" twist it is right on marginal spin rate. It's still very accurate, but could be improved. Next barrel will be a straight up 8", unfortunately, the longest blank I can get will again finish at 32". Who does longer than this?
Everything Alex says is spot on, a lot of wisdom coming from this guy.

Cheers.

 

[Bravo 4]

Maybe they will drop the 329gr idea and make a lead core 375 bullet

Not enough people pestering them (no demand). For the past several years I had been sending them an email and calling about this, don't even get a response any more.
Also not the right people/person asking. Look at Hornady with the A-tips, they put out a .416 before a .375. Nothing to do with sales. I bet for every .416 equipped to handle their A-tips there are 10 x .375 rifles that'll do it. So they are selling more .416 projectiles then they would .375?

 

[yobuck]

I'm talking IBS. Light gun is 5 hg is 10. Those were the aggs I posted. Your talking individual groups. That's not how we base accuracy, it has to repeat. So look at the 6 and 10 match group aggs. Williamsport has those also. If you shoot enough groups there are bound to be small ones we care about what the rifle can do all year long. And yes if you follow those aggregates there has been huge improvements. I am sure no one here cares about this. If you want to know more about the aggs and why those single targets dont mean much reach out to me.

Im referring to Williamsport rules which is 10 shots for everything.
They were the original, and since there were no rules for 1000 yd benchrest they created them.
I believe the only other club to still use those rules is the one in Montana.
All the others have switched over to the IBS rules.
Early on, the big names in IBS felt the whole thing was a comedy act anyway and wouldnt last.
In some ways it actually is a comedy act imop.
We will shoot as well as the prevailing conditions permit, which is why so many have moved in the direction of speed shooting, like 10 shots in a minit or less.
But it all has very little to do with hunting when you get right down to it.

 

[Deleted member 119066]

LOL

 

[LRNut]

Its improved a lot actually. You have to look at agg records. Individual small groups are usually flukes, although 3"s are now not uncommon in HG. I only have records back to 2005 from the IBS, but the LG 10 match agg was 6.183" (10 5 shot groups) the HG agg was 7.499" ( 10 10 shot groups). Today those aggs are 3.794" and 5.337". A considerable improvement in only the last 15 years. If I could find records from the 80s Id guess they would be 2-3 times larger. So there has actually been a huge improvement.
What Im telling you about hits on rocks or clay birds are not as centered as you think. I sight in on small rock all the time and go directly to paper for group and its hard to get closer than .5 moa to the aim point. Thats just not a good enough zero to verify drops in my opinion. And hunters should care about measured groups, thats how you predict your hit %. If the rifle is not shooting well enough to hit the intended target consistently you should fix that before worrying about all the other stuff. Accuracy gets blown off by a lot of hunters, but I can tell you a really good shooting rifle will make you a lot better shooter. Just my opinion. But the fact is no matter what your doing, if your putting rounds down range and paying attention then your learning.

Alex:
Along these lines, the bigger the group, the less allowable wind error you have. Shooters trying to hit a 10" target at 1000 yards think they have 5" of allowable drift. No, they don't. If their rifle shoots 1 MOA groups, they have zero allowable wind error. A .5 MOA rifle gives you some latitude, but not much - as soon as your bullet drifts 2.5", you risk a miss.

One thing I have learned over the years is it is a waste to practice at LR with an inaccurate rifle (eg 1 MOA); you never know if a miss was a bad wind call or the fact that your shot was one that hit on the outside of your group.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Im referring to Williamsport rules which is 10 shots for everything.
They were the original, and since there were no rules for 1000 yd benchrest they created them.
I believe the only other club to still use those rules is the one in Montana.
All the others have switched over to the IBS rules.
Early on, the big names in IBS felt the whole thing was a comedy act anyway and wouldnt last.
In some ways it actually is a comedy act imop.
We will shoot as well as the prevailing conditions permit, which is why so many have moved in the direction of speed shooting, like 10 shots in a minit or less.
But it all has very little to do with hunting when you get right down to it.

Deep Creek is my local range, I shot Williamsport rules here but we switched to IBS in 2015.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Alex:
Along these lines, the bigger the group, the less allowable wind error you have. Shooters trying to hit a 10" target at 1000 yards think they have 5" of allowable drift. No, they don't. If their rifle shoots 1 MOA groups, they have zero allowable wind error. A .5 MOA rifle gives you some latitude, but not much - as soon as your bullet drifts 2.5", you risk a miss.

One thing I have learned over the years is it is a waste to practice at LR with an inaccurate rifle (eg 1 MOA); you never know if a miss was a bad wind call or the fact that your shot was one that hit on the outside of your group.

Exactly.

 

[VLD Pilot]

No one wants to believe me, I know Just humor me, put a target up near a rock at 1000 or farther if you want. Shoot at that rock a few times and have guys watch, everyone guess how the rifle is grouping, then put 3 on paper. Its so hard to judge and you always think its better. We shoot rocks or clay birds all the time to sight in then go to the target. I know how it fools you and I still think Im shooting them in the same hole on the dirt mound, then you put them on paper and reality sets in. I only keep saying this to hopefully help some one improve their system. Not to be rude.

Your exactly right. I always see guys shooting rocks at 1000-1500 yards. Looks like the gun groups very well. We proved that theory wasn't exactly so with putting a cheap 50 quart cooler out at 1500 yards out in South Dakota. Couple of the clients took some shots of bipods at it with there "MOA" guns. Imagine there surprise when the cooler had very few holes in it after 5 shooter sent rounds at it. 3 total hits. Wind was mild. Low cloud ceiling. Great day for it. They all shoot rocks at 1000-1500 yards. Constant hits every time. They never check the rock out after the shot. I'd guess those rocks are 3-4' in diameter.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Its NOT easy to get a hunting rifle to consistently shoot sub .5 moa at 1000 and beyond with consistency. Why do you think so few post pictures of groups at that distance? Its easy to achieve at mid range or short range. The tune is different at those longer ranges and the windows get smaller. I tune a lot of different types of rifles all of them at 1k year round. Every time I try and cheat by tuning them at 100 or 600 I am disappointed in the groups at 1k and have to re tune them. It may sound odd, but there are aspects of a load (neck tension, bullet meplat, and primer choice for example) that will shoot well at short or mid range but will prevent you from ever getting the rifle to shoot well at long range. Do not assume you rifle will group at long range until you shoot it on paper at long range, even if its shooting .1s at 100yds with 5 fps of es.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

double post