Midweight 7's in a SA Savage

[grouse]

Im guessing that wouldn't work with the bolt/action he's using, needs to be the .473" 308/30-06 rim diameter family. And he's saying the magazine would need to be modified to fit the .500" head diameter .284 win case...I don't image the .55" wsm case working at all. Just my thoughts, I actually don't know but even if it could be made to work it sounds like a lot of work compared to just getting an entirely new action for a cartridge in this class.

Yeah Saw that. Savage makes it so easy to change heads.

 

[catamountsierra]

I started out with a Remington 700 SA in 7mm-08. The longest I could feed in the factory mag box was 2.825". I ran a 140AB at 2825 or a 150ABLR at 2750. I sent it off to the gun smith because it simply wouldn't shoot anything better than about 1.5MOA and it became a 284Win. The Wyatt's mag box lets me feed at 2.995", which is a marked improvement over the factory box. Right now I am running the 165TGK at 2832 and the 168ABLR at 2795 from a 25" barrel. I'm not putting the ogive inside the mouth, but they are only 0.082" and 0.077", respectively, above the case mouth, and those bullets stick a long way into the case. I can definitely see the 284 having a lot more potential in a long action, but like you I had a short action to work with. As to brass, I originally picked up 400 of the cheap Winchester bagged stuff when it showed up, as that was the only stuff I could find at the time. 400 cases gave me 100 inside a 1gr weight spread. Norma seems to do occasional runs of the 284 brass, and I managed to pick up 200 of those cases (all 200 had a total weight spread of 1.2gr) and the brass is much higher quality than the cheap Winchester stuff. I had been looking at necking up the 6.5-284 Lapua brass, but then Norma put out a run of their stuff. I definitely am pleased with the 284Win.

 

[JakeC]

Im guessing that wouldn't work with the bolt/action he's using, needs to be the .473" 308/30-06 rim diameter family. And he's saying the magazine would need to be modified to fit the .500" head diameter .284 win case...I don't image the .55" wsm case working at all. Just my thoughts, I actually don't know but even if it could be made to work it sounds like a lot of work compared to just getting an entirely new action for a cartridge in this class.

You are right. The mags aren't expensive and the bolt heads aren't that bad but if I'm putting money into a bolt head I'm squaring and bushing the one I have. I'd do all that work and be limited to a 2-round magazine and still have the same brass sourcing issues and a gun with more horsepower than I want. I absolutely want a SAUM or WSM but it's a different project. Like I said, someone is always throwing away a six pound 300 WSM somewhere.

 

[JakeC]

As a long time owner of the 284 win I can share some details in favor of this chambering.

There is brass available. Even Winchester brass shows up from time to time. If things get bad you could always neck up Lapua 6.5-284 brass

Working with a 2.990" magazine limit is not bad. As you know the original OAL is 2.8". You should be able to use a decent range of bullet weights from 168 gr on down. IMO anything heavier will begin to impinge on the internal powder space. Quite frankly the performance you will get with a 168 high BC bullet vs a 180 high BC bullet will be almost identical in regards to wind drift and retained energy.

In the past 20 years I have moved towards custom reamers and the 284 win is included. I opted to turn the necks. The reamer has a .317 neck. Throat angle is 1 1/2 degrees. I set mine up for a 168 Berger VLD to engage the lands .010" with an OAL that is just under 3.050". "Regular" hunting bullets , even the 120 nosler ballistic tip, work fine with this configuration. I am certain you could do something similar for your slightly shorter mag box.

As to performance, the 284 Win walks away from your other choice in a bolt action rifle. The original rifles offered in this chambering were the Win 100 autoloader and the model 88 lever action as result the published load data is a bit anemic. There are two powders that have worked well for me. While the original powder of choice was IMR 4350 and I used my share, H4350 is a better choice because it fits better and is more temperature stable. RL-17 is another great powder that will yield higher velocities due to its longer burning curve. It is my current choice. 52 gr of RL-17 and the 168 VLD yields 2925 fps from a 23 1/2" barrel. For grins I seated a 120 nos bt without changing seating die, it was accurate and very fast. I won't mention the load but PM me for all sorts of details on what you can expect with it and a variety of other hunting bullets.

The 284 win's case design was far ahead of its time when it was introduced in 1963. It has the best attributes of today's modern cases. 35 degree shoulder minimum body taper and plenty of case capacity for such a short case. I sectioned a win case and compared the web to a winchester case in 300 win mag, the web was thicker on the 284 win! If there is any complaint the winchester 284 brass often has necks that are often thicker on one area which is why I turn them.

Let us know what you end up doing.

AZ, thanks for the info. Nice dog BTW, I just got an Epagneul Breton hoping to get a versatile Hunter out of him up here in Utah but he is a big ol' sissy about swimming so far. They are known to be slow maturing so I'm not too worried.

Your numbers are much better than I'd hoped for your length, they're actually a lot higher than my goals, and it sounds like the versatility I want is there. I've spent the last two weeks writing up a few dozen drop charts and effective range charts and the ABLR 150, 168 and 175 run neck and neck at the performance level I want. based on what I could find the heavies bog out at 7-08 speeds and start to peel away at high SAUM values. My goal is to play around where things intersect and have lots of loads to experiment with. I'll reach out when I get closer and thanks.

 

[JakeC]

I started out with a Remington 700 SA in 7mm-08. The longest I could feed in the factory mag box was 2.825". I ran a 140AB at 2825 or a 150ABLR at 2750. I sent it off to the gun smith because it simply wouldn't shoot anything better than about 1.5MOA and it became a 284Win. The Wyatt's mag box lets me feed at 2.995", which is a marked improvement over the factory box. Right now I am running the 165TGK at 2832 and the 168ABLR at 2795 from a 25" barrel. I'm not putting the ogive inside the mouth, but they are only 0.082" and 0.077", respectively, above the case mouth, and those bullets stick a long way into the case. I can definitely see the 284 having a lot more potential in a long action, but like you I had a short action to work with. As to brass, I originally picked up 400 of the cheap Winchester bagged stuff when it showed up, as that was the only stuff I could find at the time. 400 cases gave me 100 inside a 1gr weight spread. Norma seems to do occasional runs of the 284 brass, and I managed to pick up 200 of those cases (all 200 had a total weight spread of 1.2gr) and the brass is much higher quality than the cheap Winchester stuff. I had been looking at necking up the 6.5-284 Lapua brass, but then Norma put out a run of their stuff. I definitely am pleased with the 284Win.

This is exactly the type of detail I was hoping to get, that's great. You're getting exactly the high end of the performance I'm after. Mind if I ask what powder you're using? I don't mind the ogive being close, I bet my gun will feet that much better than the cartridge in it now. I was more worried that the ABLR 168 and similar would be so far in that the mouth would deform on feeding or there'd be wacky misalignment issues from driving it into the powder with only the back half of the neck gripping.

I'm just assuming you're using a saami chamber because you didn't mention anything special. It also sounds like you've been with it a while so you must have the accuracy you want. What kind of jump are you looking at 2.995? I know the OG cartridge was shorter but it was using a bullet that was halfway to a wadcutter by today's standards.

 

[xsn10s]

Hmm any thoughts on this cartridge? https://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/7x47-lapua-wildcat-cartridge/

 

[JakeC]

Hmm any thoughts on this cartridge? https://www.accurateshooter.com/guns-of-week/7x47-lapua-wildcat-cartridge/

I think it looks awesome, extremely impressive, but I'm not after the full compliment of custom dies, reamer, and having my bolt rebuilt for small primers. Not on this round anyway. I had wondered about this configuration in my research so I'm happy to actually see something on it. Hopefully this becomes more supported in the future, I like the concept a lot.

 

[xsn10s]

I think it looks awesome, extremely impressive, but I'm not after the full compliment of custom dies, reamer, and having my bolt rebuilt for small primers. Not on this round anyway. I had wondered about this configuration in my research so I'm happy to actually see something on it. Hopefully this becomes more supported in the future, I like the concept a lot.

I wasn't aware of a need to rebuild a bolt for small primers. I'm building a 260 AI but really like the idea of a 7-08, especially if 2700 fps with a 180 gr is doable. I'll be interested in what you end up with.

 

[JakeC]

I wasn't aware of a need to rebuild a bolt for small primers. I'm building a 260 AI but really like the idea of a 7-08, especially if 2700 fps with a 180 gr is doable. I'll be interested in what you end up with.

Yeah, it's buried in that article but "normal" firing pins and holes can have the tendency to pierce, misalign, underfire, or otherwise mutilate small primers. Having a savage it's doubly bad, I know I've probably already got a badly timed, overcocked pin that is larger than it needs to be in a hole that's still too large for it. That's on top of a bolt face that's slightly dished, meaning full-bore loads ruin cases after 2 firings. It's still a really useable and accurate gun if I live within its limitations, that's just the quirks you get with a savage.

 

[David Emerson]

If you are working in a short action either the 7x6.5Prc or 7 saum is better. But you need to run a 3 inch wyatts box in them too. I might get a lot of hate here but the 284 to really go needs a long action and the correct throat to run.

 

[catamountsierra]

This is exactly the type of detail I was hoping to get, that's great. You're getting exactly the high end of the performance I'm after. Mind if I ask what powder you're using? I don't mind the ogive being close, I bet my gun will feet that much better than the cartridge in it now. I was more worried that the ABLR 168 and similar would be so far in that the mouth would deform on feeding or there'd be wacky misalignment issues from driving it into the powder with only the back half of the neck gripping.

I'm just assuming you're using a saami chamber because you didn't mention anything special. It also sounds like you've been with it a while so you must have the accuracy you want. What kind of jump are you looking at 2.995? I know the OG cartridge was shorter but it was using a bullet that was halfway to a wadcutter by today's standards.

I still have a bunch of H4350 from loading the 7mm-08, and am using it behind the 165TGKs. I am trying H4831SC behind the 168ABLRs. I believe the chamber for the most part is just saami spec, but the smith set the throat to match some dummy rounds I made up with the 168ABLRs. I'm running 0.020" jump at this point. I will say that the TGKs seem to be much more tolerant of jump distance than the ABLRs and seem to have a much wider window for accuracy.

 

[catamountsierra]

If you are working in a short action either the 7x6.5Prc or 7 saum is better. But you need to run a 3 inch wyatts box in them too. I might get a lot of hate here but the 284 to really go needs a long action and the correct throat to run.

Yep, 284Win would definitely have longer legs in a long action, but I only had the short action to work with. I'm quite happy running the 168 class bullets at the same speeds I was getting with the 140 class when the rifle was a 7mm-08. With a long action you should be able to seat those long bullets so the front of the boattail is at the shoulder-neck junction, which would open up a lot of powder volume. As it is, I have the base of the bullet 0.483" below the shoulder-neck junction.

 

[Calvin45]

Yeah Saw that. Savage makes it so easy to change heads.

Good to know. I Suppose that makes sense when compared to one-piece bolt designs.

 

[JakeC]

I still have a bunch of H4350 from loading the 7mm-08, and am using it behind the 165TGKs. I am trying H4831SC behind the 168ABLRs. I believe the chamber for the most part is just saami spec, but the smith set the throat to match some dummy rounds I made up with the 168ABLRs. I'm running 0.020" jump at this point. I will say that the TGKs seem to be much more tolerant of jump distance than the ABLRs and seem to have a much wider window for accuracy.

I'm pretty alright with .4" in the powder space, you're still getting as good as I'm after. Based on eyeballing their shapes the jump tolerance makes sense. I'm also glad to hear about the 4831sc. that I can always find, 2020 aside. That's usually the last slow-mid powder on the shelf and its treated me really well. I need to study the saami chamber again and see what that looks like. Overall you've swung the pendulum of indecision back to the .284, I thought what you're saying was theoretically possible but I hadn't heard of it. It seems like everyone fixates on what it COULD be and writes it off but in a 3" mag it's exactly where I want to be. If I want more spank than 168g/bc .616/ SD .3 @ 2800 then I'm going .30 cal, no second thought.