Why can’t we get good dies!

The OP is correct. A full length die is supposed to reduce the diameter of a case as well as set the shoulder back. Thats it's job. In most cases an off the shelf die will not reduce the diameter at the base above the extractor groove of a fired case from a saami minimum spec chamber, usually it will at the shoulder, often too much. Its a very well known issue among competitors and gunsmiths. Thats why we order resize reamers so we can make dies that actually work. The other option is increase the diameter of the chamber which is not ideal. With a die that works correctly, brass does not wear out. Its not supposed to be scrap in 5 firings. In Benchrest, 60-70k psi is normal, cases are full length sized every time, and you cant wear one out. I know of many that have reloaded cases over 100 times at high pressure. The key to long brass life is a well speced chamber, a full length die that works, and is used every time. I just bought a 300 PRC full length die for a wildcat Im going to do and the base of that die measures what the base of the chamber measures, in other words, guaranteed clickers. Ordered a resize reamer the next day. It is actually is big problem, and if more understood it and held the manufacturers accountable, we may get it fixed.
 
Rhovee said:
It's a bummer the thread turned to crap. Tried to be informative on some issues with dies.
Click to expand...

I must admit, Sir, that I didn't know what you meant by a "clicker." I was thinking of asking, but I figured that maybe if I read a few more posts I would find out. Well, eventually I did find out, when TK50 gave us a working definition of the term. Thanks for that. As for the other guy who is all wrapped around the axle, all I can say is that it would be nice if he just settles down and starts acting like a gentleman. I'm also glad that Feenix finally posted the little animal with the popcorn to lighten the air. By the way - does the clicking hurt anything ?
 
Stiltsville said:
So you are saying that on a rimless cartridge, a misfire is caused by the case head 2/10s above the back of the case ? That is the area generally known as the web. If the web is too large the cartridge will not chamber. If the web is too small (as is all factory ammo), the cartridge will still fire IF the headspace is correct.

He (mysterious Ryan) ( Your pal ?) has never really what the problem is.

Neither he nor you can describe in plain English, with examples, what this phantom problem unknown to anyone but Ryan.

He said: "I get clickers on most rifles after a few firings because the web isn't getting sized."

I assume a "clicker" is a misfire (???) The ONLY way to get a misfire in a rimless cartridge with good components, is excessive headspace in the rifle OR the cartridge shoulder pushed back.

As I pointed out, IF the head is too big you cannot chamber the cartridge.

I just cannot believe you are carrying the water for this BS post.

Seems like no one else can be bothered even commenting on such a comedy of errors !

This Ryan's problem as described in 100s of reloading books which he he and you have not read and understood !

"Basically, headspace is the measurement from the slope of the shoulder to the base of the cartridge, or the corresponding dimensions in the rifle chamber. Excessive chamber headspace allows the cartridge to be farther forward in the chamber away from the firing pin, or it can allow for the cartridge case to move forward when struck by the firing pin. Certainly, this can affect ignition reliability and cause misfires."

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CARTRIDGE HEAD DIMENSION !
Click to expand...
 
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Stiltsville said:
AND, "clickers" are not caused by big webs, they are caused by excessive head space from a two deep chamber OR, belt too thin (belted), rim too thin (rimmed), shoulder pushed back. (rimless)

This is all reloading 101 stuff !
Click to expand...
Maybe a dumb question. But what the hell are clickers?
 
A clicker is a tight case that is stuck in the chamber. The bolt makes a clicking sound when the extraction cam pops the case free. In normal use, your extraction cam is not used.
Most of the time they are caused from an interference fit at the base of the case and chamber. The main cause of this is a sizing die that is oversived in that area. They typically wont show up until 3-5 reloadings of the case.
 
nicholasjohn said:
By the way - does the clicking hurt anything ?
Click to expand...
What a brilliant question. Perhaps we'll learn the answer.
Not only had I never heard of a "clicker" in 35 years of serious handloading (including a couple wildcats and one I designed myself and went through the whole process of designing a chamber reamer and having the dies custom made), but it took me 6 pages of this thread to even remotely understand what a "clicker" is. And I do not use "remotely" lightly, as I still only have vaugest notion of what is being described.
I just never knew the die manufacturers were screwing up as much as is claimed. I'm usually really happy if I get a sizer that gives me less than .001 runout. I've never had an issue with the sizing of the lower half of the case and typically appreciate "the less the better" in this area.

Just my 2 cents - I may be seriously too ignorant to understand the impact of this problem. So I would really appreciate if someone could provide a clearer explanation of exactly what the problem is.

Thanks,
Rex
 
Alex Wheeler said:
A clicker is a tight case that is stuck in the chamber. The bolt makes a clicking sound when the extraction cam pops the case free. In normal use, your extraction cam is not used.
Most of the time they are caused from an interference fit at the base of the case and chamber. The main cause of this is a sizing die that is oversived in that area. They typically wont show up until 3-5 reloadings of the case.
Click to expand...

Good explanation. I just recently experienced this very situation with a custom 280AI. After 6 reloadings (I anneal after every firing) I experienced this for the first time. I use the Redding competition shell holder method and after going through them all went to a regular .125 shell holder with cam over and no better results. Tried the old method of taking a couple thousands off the shell holder and got the same results. I was pushing the shoulder back way too much and still not resizing the bases .200 up.
Took rifle and brass to my gunsmith who had 3 different sets of 280AI dies. One full length die solved my problem while the other 2 were same results as mine.
I called the die manufacturer and after getting to one of the technicians he said it is a pretty common problem. He said to send them the die with 3-4 fired rounds. I have sent the die and 4 fired casings and I am waiting for a response but with this Covid situation it could be a while.
 
Alex Wheeler said:
A clicker is a tight case that is stuck in the chamber. The bolt makes a clicking sound when the extraction cam pops the case free. In normal use, your extraction cam is not used.
Most of the time they are caused from an interference fit at the base of the case and chamber. The main cause of this is a sizing die that is oversived in that area. They typically wont show up until 3-5 reloadings of the case.
Click to expand...
Great explanation. Thanks
 

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