Yeah, and people living longer than ever, what with Teflon, GMOs, taking medical advice from gunsmiths, etc.
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Hammer hype?
- Thread starter Winfwt338-06
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No I am not saying that we should use anything just because the military does, trust me it isn't always the best application or equipment. Matchkings and hunting is another topic. I was pointing out that you don't need the highest BC bullet available to make a lethal hit. Maybe my experience is different than yours in that I have to use and became accustomed to making long range hits with a slow lower BC bullet. So when I can push a higher BC bullet (yes I mean that 236 Hammer) even faster, things actually get easier and not harder like you probably see them. That .338 load actually out performs our .300 WinMag load that we are supposed to qualify out to 1200 meters with. I will agree that less wind deflection leaves you more margin for error. I'm also sure I have killed but a fraction of the elk you have, I have to travel a good ways to be able to do that. Which is not a big deal, getting to take the time to do it is. I am envious of you that are blessed to have such opportunities. What gets me chiming in on these threads is when people start bashing something they know nothing about. You have your opinions and I have mine. I will say this at be done with it because we are apparently on opposite ends of this, I know good bullet performance when I see it.I shoot a 260, and a 6.5 PRC and a 300 RUM among others. My son shoots a 6.5 creedmoor. How many elk have you killed with anything? Are you saying we should start using matchking bullets on game because thats what what are military has chosen to use in combat? I am not sure where you are going with this - i don't like hammer bullets and will never use them. If you are saying there are people who are good enough at reading wind to get perfect hits with at 800 meters with low BC bullets, you are right. I am saying there are better options. You can shoot whatever you want at whatever you want, including elk at sea level with hammer bullets.
I have killed elk with a 243, 25-06, 260, 300 rum, 300 wby, 7wsm and 7rm. I guess thats the benefit of growing up with them in your back yard - I have never believed that they are bulletproof and frankly I think the 1500ft lbs of energy " requirement" to kill them is a joke. As long as I live in a free state I will never shoot a mono bullet again - been there done that was not impressed. I use bergers and eldx and if I die from lead poisoning so be it
Rich Coyle
Well-Known Member
I guess I'm lucky. I don't shoot long range where I hunt. The farthest I can see in these woods is from one ridge to a couple ridges over and that is only about 600 yards. The bullet I used to use was the Hammer Shock Hammer with maybe a 2mm - 2.5mm hollow point. After I had the 6.5 Coyle bored out to 8mm by oregunsmithingllc.com I switched to Hammer Hunter 198 grainers. I have no idea what the B.C. is but certainly it will work at that range since its muzzle velocity is 3,050 feet per second. I worked it up to pressure. Took the load Steve suggested and fired five at 100 yards. The first three made a 1/4" group. Shot #4 was a "flier" opening the group to 9/16" and shot #5 touched the hole made by the second shot. So ten shots to pressure and the load work was finished. That has never happened before in the forty-five years I have been loading. That's pretty cheap load development.
By the way the rifle weighs 7 1/4 pounds ready do go. I hold it like I would a BB gun when I fire it. Works for me.
By the way the rifle weighs 7 1/4 pounds ready do go. I hold it like I would a BB gun when I fire it. Works for me.
UplandFreak
Well-Known Member
You are right I haven't hunted with them - only done load development with them. BCs were significantly lower than what was stated, but they were purchased because of the BC on the website. After running them out to 1250 yards and doing some research and realizing our BC was closer to a the one Bryan Litz had we abandoned them. It was an expensive mistake. We switched to 180 eldms and didnt look back. When you are in the mountains shooting across canyons, BC is the only thing that allows a margin of error on a less than perfect wind call. I have no doubt you are better at reading wind than I am - but I am going to run the highest BC bullet I can trust to perform. Just me...
and I really have no desire to hear how complicated BCs are and how they are different for each gun...hammers are the only ones I have seen use that excuse. While not every bullet manufacturer get is right all the time (thinking ABLR BCs before they were corrected) , they are usually pretty darn close.
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
I gotta say that I read this whole thread and I am pretty impressed with the civility. There is always a few that seem to come unglued.
To the OP. I think the petals on look better in the marketing pic. The old Partition, I think is the perfect terminal performance design. That is what we set out to make with pure copper. Because of the pure copper design we see less meat damage compared to the lead since the shed petals are much more robust in size than the shed lead. The lead is nearly a liquid and when it is impacted at high vel it turns into a "mist" for lack of better words. That is where the blood shot meat comes from. Finding a copper that we could get consistent shedding and deformation in a huge range of impact velocities was difficult. When we found the alloy that we currently use it made a huge diff in on game performance.
I get the complaint about bc's. We do every now and then see a rifle that tanks the bc from what we normally see. It is very frustrating to say the least. We recently figured out what causes it. I had a customer reach out to me that was shooting our 88g 6mm Hammer Hunter in a custom 6mm Creed. He was shooting just over an inch at 720y but was needing 3 moa more correction for the drop than what should be needed according to our listed bc. We went over everything that he was doing and he was spot on. Dang near like shooting the bullet backwards! In the conversation it came out that he had a 243 win that was nearly a twin to the Creed accept the Creed was intentionally bored 1 thou tighter. He had done this because he has seen better accuracy with this when shooting competition. He was willing to do some testing so he loaded the 243 win and it ran spot on with the listed bc out to the 720y. Great data! It then dawned on me what was happening. So we quickly designed a bullet with a secant ogive and sent them to him to test. He worked up loads in both rifles that were running within 10 fps of each other. With the secant ogive the two rifles shot within 1" of each other at 720y with the same correction. Really great data! So what we have figured out now is the tangent ogive, that most of our bullets have, is being engraved further out in front of the shoulder the tighter a bore is. This distortion of the ogive of the bullet in front of the shoulder is causing very negative effects on the bc. I think we are seeing more adverse effects from higher number of grooves too. Haven't proved it though. With the secant ovgive test bullet the difference in the amount of engraving forward of the shoulder is minimal. Thus little to no change in bc between the two rifles and the resulting bc being what would be expected.
With this knowledge we have begun testing a bullet design that will not allow distortion of the ogive in front of the shoulder. Also at the same time testing some different ogive designs to see if we can get some increase in bc. So far testing is going quite well. We have gained significant muzzle vel with this design and a little bit of bc. We have a couple more ogive designs to test for bc before we settle on one and create another full line of bullets. So far we have worked with .224 cal and 7mm projectiles and see parallel results in several rifles. The vel gains are significant across the board. So far we are seeing 200-300 fps gain over conventional bullets of the same weight. In our 27" barreled 280ai, 8" twist Excalibur barrel we are getting 3300 fsp with a 151g projectile, comfortably. Nosler shows 3107 fps as their fastest in the 280ai with a 150g bullet. Hodgdon shows 2952 fps as their fastest load with 150g bullet. Our test shooter running the 22 cal projectile saw the same kind of vel increase and also a small increase in bc, mirroring our results.
Hate to come out with a new line of bullets, but the day we quite trying to find better ways will be a bad day. With that said we will not get rid of any current offerings. They have been stellar performers for the vast majority of shooters using them.
Thanks to everyone for a thread that did not turn into a fight.
To the OP. I think the petals on look better in the marketing pic. The old Partition, I think is the perfect terminal performance design. That is what we set out to make with pure copper. Because of the pure copper design we see less meat damage compared to the lead since the shed petals are much more robust in size than the shed lead. The lead is nearly a liquid and when it is impacted at high vel it turns into a "mist" for lack of better words. That is where the blood shot meat comes from. Finding a copper that we could get consistent shedding and deformation in a huge range of impact velocities was difficult. When we found the alloy that we currently use it made a huge diff in on game performance.
I get the complaint about bc's. We do every now and then see a rifle that tanks the bc from what we normally see. It is very frustrating to say the least. We recently figured out what causes it. I had a customer reach out to me that was shooting our 88g 6mm Hammer Hunter in a custom 6mm Creed. He was shooting just over an inch at 720y but was needing 3 moa more correction for the drop than what should be needed according to our listed bc. We went over everything that he was doing and he was spot on. Dang near like shooting the bullet backwards! In the conversation it came out that he had a 243 win that was nearly a twin to the Creed accept the Creed was intentionally bored 1 thou tighter. He had done this because he has seen better accuracy with this when shooting competition. He was willing to do some testing so he loaded the 243 win and it ran spot on with the listed bc out to the 720y. Great data! It then dawned on me what was happening. So we quickly designed a bullet with a secant ogive and sent them to him to test. He worked up loads in both rifles that were running within 10 fps of each other. With the secant ogive the two rifles shot within 1" of each other at 720y with the same correction. Really great data! So what we have figured out now is the tangent ogive, that most of our bullets have, is being engraved further out in front of the shoulder the tighter a bore is. This distortion of the ogive of the bullet in front of the shoulder is causing very negative effects on the bc. I think we are seeing more adverse effects from higher number of grooves too. Haven't proved it though. With the secant ovgive test bullet the difference in the amount of engraving forward of the shoulder is minimal. Thus little to no change in bc between the two rifles and the resulting bc being what would be expected.
With this knowledge we have begun testing a bullet design that will not allow distortion of the ogive in front of the shoulder. Also at the same time testing some different ogive designs to see if we can get some increase in bc. So far testing is going quite well. We have gained significant muzzle vel with this design and a little bit of bc. We have a couple more ogive designs to test for bc before we settle on one and create another full line of bullets. So far we have worked with .224 cal and 7mm projectiles and see parallel results in several rifles. The vel gains are significant across the board. So far we are seeing 200-300 fps gain over conventional bullets of the same weight. In our 27" barreled 280ai, 8" twist Excalibur barrel we are getting 3300 fsp with a 151g projectile, comfortably. Nosler shows 3107 fps as their fastest in the 280ai with a 150g bullet. Hodgdon shows 2952 fps as their fastest load with 150g bullet. Our test shooter running the 22 cal projectile saw the same kind of vel increase and also a small increase in bc, mirroring our results.
Hate to come out with a new line of bullets, but the day we quite trying to find better ways will be a bad day. With that said we will not get rid of any current offerings. They have been stellar performers for the vast majority of shooters using them.
Thanks to everyone for a thread that did not turn into a fight.
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
I have on more than one occasion offered you a refund. For whatever reason you don't take me up on it. I guess it is better for you to complain.
Jnm300ultra
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Steve thanks for all the support and load advice when starting a new load. I recently bought a box of the 284 143 grain they a my house before I knew it. I haven't had a chance to try they in my new 280 Ackley, waiting for Peterson brass to arrive. I will also be trying something for my 300 Winchester Mag. I was thing about the 181 or the 177. I forget the exact grain weight for a 1-10 twist. My gunsmith swears with your bullets and I witnessed them first hand how accurate they are. I was really hung up on the bc of bullets, but if the don't shoot as accurately as a lower bc do you really gain anything? I don't think so. With something more accurate your x count goes up and so does the kill ratio.
Jason
Jason
Rich Coyle
Well-Known Member
UplandFreak,
"and I really have no desire to hear how complicated BCs are and how they are different for each gun...hammers are the only ones I have seen use that excuse."
Maybe you could tell us of another company who has owners like Steve and Brian who will actually find out what is happening in the field and address it.
"and I really have no desire to hear how complicated BCs are and how they are different for each gun...hammers are the only ones I have seen use that excuse."
Maybe you could tell us of another company who has owners like Steve and Brian who will actually find out what is happening in the field and address it.
UplandFreak
Well-Known Member
I didn't buy the bullets steve, my buddy did. I am not going to ask for a refund for something I did not pay for. Having said that, last time I checked this isn't north korea, and just because some of you don't like my opinion or experience, does it mean it shouldnt be shared? I thought that was the benefit of a forum like this. People can read about different experiences and opinions and make a decision for themselves. I haven't shared anything that was factually incorrect - you yourself have admitted your BCs are overstated and have publicly said you don't agree with Bryan Litz's BC for your bullets, even though some of us have found his numbers to be more accurate than yours. Thats all I have ever been critical of, and I am definitely not the only one.
James DeTorre
Well-Known Member
I think in Texas they call DRT. As one gets older tracking and dragging become an issue.Also dead across a river or property line isn't dead , it's lost.
RockyMtnMT
Official LRH Sponsor
We have been doing very well with the 181g HH in the 300wm with ADG or Gunwerks brass and rl23. This brass picked us up 150 fps over what we were able to get before. Obviously there is pressure there but the brass handles it like a champ.
I use Sierra Game King and have fantastic performance. No expensive fancy crap for me. I will never understand why everyone thinks you must have a custom bullet with some fancy name. Sierra has been in business longer that most of the others combined. Guess bragging at the coffee shop is not cool unless you have a fancy name to brag about.
Jnm300ultra
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2015
- Messages
- 313
The 181 HH was the bullet I was looking at. Thanks again for your advice on the brass and rl23. I really need to try rl23 since it would work out for both my 300 Winchester Mag and my 280 Ackley.
Thanks
Jason
Some of you guys kill me on these threads. Why can't you just state your experience n opinion and be done. Do you really think your gonna change anybody's mind about something they've had a good experience or bad with. Then come the insults. I've seen my grandkids get past a disagreement faster then some of you guys. I have a feeling these discussions would be different in person. I must add that I do find it entertaining 
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