Bears, Majic Powder & Caliber Efficiency.

[Wild Monkey]

Recently the discussion came up regarding Brown Bears. Hypothetically speaking lets assume 3000 Foot Pounds is the Safe Number for Bears Considered "Dangerous Game". Making observations via the Hornady Website, the .338 Caliber retains the most Energy efficiency using 225 Grain Bullets & .375 Caliber is 270 Grain Bullets of the Ammo listed. Theoretically the .338 Win Mag is the smallest Cartridge that can maintain 3000 Foot Pounds to 200 Yards, & the .375 Ruger retains 3373 Foot Pounds @ 200 Yards. Keeping in mind these figures are with Hornady's Majic Powder. If you use Projectiles outside this Window you will dramatically decrease efficiency in either Caliber. Taking this into account a hand loader may not be able to equal the Hornady Performance using the .338 Winnie and may opt for the 340 WBY as a minimum Baseline firing 225's. What is the True minimum figure for Foot Pounds on Brown Bears all the way up to Grizzly & Polar Bears on the Danger scale? Considering a Speedy Bear can cover 200 Yards in a few seconds Bubba Math goes out the window real quick. Maybe Bear Guides should just carry Bear Spears to be safe?



Edit: Please note the "Campfire" or "Demon" 338 versions of the 375R are known Equals to .340 Weatherby.

 

[Jerry M]

Jack O'Conner killed two Grizzly bears with a .270 Winchester...

I'd carry a .375 H&H, but I own one I used in Africa.

Good luck

Jerry

 

[hunter67wa]

Energy doesn't kill sorry don't get hung up on it. 338-06 with 210 TTSX would do great, but so would a 30-06.

 

[Wild Monkey]

These are hypothetical Energy numbers for less than ideal situations, such as a charging Polar Bear at close range. Available data indicate ideal energy requirements to penetrate the frontal chest area in order to penetrate Rib bone - Breast. I'm no Bear Hunter and to take on a Large Polar Bear charging me I'd nothing less than a Ma Deuce and fresh Depends.

 

[rammac]

They've taken Kodiac bear with a bow so why do you think you need so much power to drop one.

Alaska Fish and Game says

Most experienced hunters consider a .30-06 rifle with a 180 grain soft-nosed bullet to be the smallest effective caliber for Kodiak brown bears. The .300 mag, .338 mag., and .375 mag. are popular and well-suited calibers. A waterproof rifle stock is also beneficial during a Kodiak hunt.

 

[HARPERC]

A lot of bow/arrow combinations penetrate better than some .30-06 180 soft point loads. As such reach and destroy vital tissue better. Generally archery folks don't try breaking shoulders, and other big bone.

What kills game is the destruction of vital tissue. When a bullet has the weight, caliber, construction, and velocity to penetrate well enough to do this energy is a by product, not the goal.

 

[Catahoula]

I have no experience with the big bears but after having a Ma black bear with 3 cubs charge me I can say it happens SOOO fast that few folks could make the shot. I did'nt have time to think about shooting. My 2 dogs saved my butt. There are lots of grizzlies where I hunt black bear. I have started carrying pepper spray & sometimes when I am in really thick stuff it is in my hand. Someday I sure hope to hunt the big bears.

 

[rammac]

Seriously, why do you assume that you can deploy a spray faster than a gun?
Why do you assume that a spray will stop a bear any better than a gun?
If you can carry the spray in your hand then why can't you carry a handgun?
If you are carrying a gun in your hand then why would you not be able to shoot just as quickly as you would spray?

The problem most people have with a bear charge is that they haven't really thought about it happening to them or practiced in any way that would resemble that kind of situation. If you haven't programmed your brain to react to an emergency then most often you'll just freeze, I spent 20+ years in the Marine Corps and that's the only thing that makes a person able to react well when he experiences a life and death situation - practice. I couldn't care less about the argument about whether bear spray is better than a gun, or if a bow is somehow more magical than a gun, what matters is how the person involved reacts. If you aren't prepared then you wont react well. I've been in tense situations with bears, moose, and mountain lions, not to mention a few bad people, and I can tell you that if you've practiced you won't really think, your body will just react. Your focus will be on identification of the threat and you'll have time to decide if you should shoot. If you haven't had any experience with that kind of situation then you're just going to either shoot automatically without thinking or you'll freeze.

 

[rammac]

For the original poster;
Here is what the Forest Service regulations for the Juneau Alaska area states:

(1) The .375 H&H Magnum rifle loaded with cartridges containing a minimum of 270 grain expanding bullets is considered the most effective weapon authorized by the Forest Service for bear protection.

Other rifle and ammunition combinations may be used in cases where personnel do not feel competent to handle the recoil of the .375 H&H Magnum, or prefer to use an approved personal rifle of some other caliber. However, the 30.06 with 220 grain bullets shall be the minimum acceptable combination.

(2) The 12-gauge pump shotgun, with minimum 18" barrel and 3" chamber, may be used as an option in lieu of rifles with an authorization from the Forest Supervisor. At a minimum, shotguns must be loaded with 2-3/4" magnum, 1-1/4 ounce slug.

 

[Catahoula]

Seriously, why do you assume that you can deploy a spray faster than a gun?
Why do you assume that a spray will stop a bear any better than a gun?
If you can carry the spray in your hand then why can't you carry a handgun?
If you are carrying a gun in your hand then why would you not be able to shoot just as quickly as you would spray?

The problem most people have with a bear charge is that they haven't really thought about it happening to them or practiced in any way that would resemble that kind of situation. If you haven't programmed your brain to react to an emergency then most often you'll just freeze, I spent 20+ years in the Marine Corps and that's the only thing that makes a person able to react well when he experiences a life and death situation - practice. I couldn't care less about the argument about whether bear spray is better than a gun, or if a bow is somehow more magical than a gun, what matters is how the person involved reacts. If you aren't prepared then you wont react well. I've been in tense situations with bears, moose, and mountain lions, not to mention a few bad people, and I can tell you that if you've practiced you won't really think, your body will just react. Your focus will be on identification of the threat and you'll have time to decide if you should shoot. If you haven't had any experience with that kind of situation then you're just going to either shoot automatically without thinking or you'll freeze.

I can't answer all that. In my opinion there is not a good answer. I watched a pepper spray demonstration in West Yellowstone at the Grizzly Discovery Center. The spray puts out a big cloud. But if the wind is wrong you will eat some of it as well. I just bought a 10mm that I will probably carry a bit this year. I can only hope I don't get into that kind of situation.

 

[Wild Monkey]

For the original poster;
Here is what the Forest Service regulations for the Juneau Alaska area states:

375 H&H mimics the exact data I posted, 4699@ muzzle & 3272@ 200 Yards. This PSA mimics Canadian Northern recommendations only they added minimum 4 Slugs per shotgun and stated High powered .308 & 30-06 Loads (or don't leave your house!). I guess I should have originally said based on PSA information for Polar Bears... As most Rifles can't penetrate the chest of a Polar Bear and 3000 lbs is considered the minimum.

(Dangerous Game Loads for 30-06 & .308 meet minimum @ 50 Yards & less)

 

[sp6x6]

I always wished Id make it bowhunting for them.Know I hope to rifle one some day. I run a 338NM W/300 grn and it has 2955 ft lbs at 600. Id run a stout bullet.

 

[memtb]

Seriously, why do you assume that you can deploy a spray faster than a gun?
Why do you assume that a spray will stop a bear any better than a gun?
If you can carry the spray in your hand then why can't you carry a handgun?
If you are carrying a gun in your hand then why would you not be able to shoot just as quickly as you would spray?

The problem most people have with a bear charge is that they haven't really thought about it happening to them or practiced in any way that would resemble that kind of situation. If you haven't programmed your brain to react to an emergency then most often you'll just freeze, I spent 20+ years in the Marine Corps and that's the only thing that makes a person able to react well when he experiences a life and death situation - practice. I couldn't care less about the argument about whether bear spray is better than a gun, or if a bow is somehow more magical than a gun, what matters is how the person involved reacts. If you aren't prepared then you wont react well. I've been in tense situations with bears, moose, and mountain lions, not to mention a few bad people, and I can tell you that if you've practiced you won't really think, your body will just react. Your focus will be on identification of the threat and you'll have time to decide if you should shoot. If you haven't had any experience with that kind of situation then you're just going to either shoot automatically without thinking or you'll freeze.

While I'm "not" a fan of pepper spray.....you don't have to be nearly as accurate. You lay down a "fog pattern" that the bear must pass through which could a couple of feet wide. You bullet is likely less than 1/2" in diameter and "must" be properly placed, on a rapidly approaching animal.....and your bench rest is at home! Jus say'n! memtb

 

[sp6x6]

Long ago I read a comprehensive book on bear attacks,which I could remember.But had many cases of hunters shooting big bears and going after them,with drastic results.Many where shot with large magnum or other,all wounded.Some of these bears dished out a lot before they went.Many bears followed into alders and just crashed out and attacked.Hunters shot there partners while trying to save or were mauled also.There is old time video,No land for the timid.Think is one where guy shoots a polar bear,giant,at close range with 375,if I recall. Bear goes threw ice and gone,but then climbs back out.The hunter shoots many more,this bear on feet,taken it,maybe he was knocked down and got up,think was 7 shots out of 375 at point blank.Amazing bear,think this was back in 60's?