belted cartridges

[longrangebob]

My first belted magnum was my 300 in 74 - predominantly Neck sized but when I got new barrel(s) full sizing advisable & Larry Willis's Die made all the difference in keeping most of my long used - brass — had a number of belted magnums since (340 my new fav since 95) - now a whole # of non-belted - following 06 History a lot older as started with it when younger - ALL are good - but strongly suggest neck sizing till bit stiff to close bolt then 2-3 thousands set back with full length resizing except Hunting Dangerous or Long Range Match when full length advisable - & annealing for those matches -

 

[DavidleeCole]

I have had issues with my .300 Whby mag in the past when I first started loading. I was running the die all the way down till it bottomed out on the shell holder then another 1/4 turn like the manual said. It was oversizing the brass and I was doing this every load so after about 3 to 4 loads and the head would come off. Frustration is what it was. Now I don't load like that and overwork my brass sp i have not had that problem yet and i am well on the 6th loading of my brass.

 

[Shootin4fun]

I have an OLD 7RM Sendero that the brass grows .026 at first firing. I will shot 3 or 4 neck sized loads until bolt was TIGHT to close. I used a Redding Body Die and Competition Shell Holder set to get just enough to close bolt with a bit of feel. Never had a case head separation since. Most accurate gun I have in the safe.

This is what I have experienced in my 7RM as well. If I only NS, bumping .002 when I do FL size, then about 2 - 4 firings will require FL sizing again. Here we go back into the debate of FL vs neck sizing. Because when we NS, each time we fire, the case is pushing the shoulder out and it is not being made consistent with previous firings. A guy has a whole video on one of our other threads here exhorting the reasons NOT to NECK SIZE. It makes sense to FL size every time, having the die set to bump .001 - ,002. That way the cases are always the same dimentions, no capacity change, no energy expended in expanding the brass a different amount when it finally hits the chamber shoulder area (requiring another bump). But I have not done controlled experiments over say 4 firings to compare velocity or POI changes as the NS cases' shoulder grows. Generally, I can't say I see a POI shift as they grow. And I have not compared my chrono results looking for a pattern over successive NS firings. I have been NS my 7RM and 6.5CM for a few years now. It's so much easier and faster. But on the 6.5 I am reverting back to FL every time. For one thing, it seems to me that it forces better runout numbers. The case is fully supported by the sidewalls of a FL die so the neck always hits the bushing in the same axial position every time. With NS, axial alignment variances can occur. Just my own ponderings...

 

[bigngreen]

Issues of o we sizing and having case head separation are not any different issue between belted or non belted, the issue is simply not sizing down the very small area just ahead of the belt which eventually for some causes stiff bolt close at some point. Even the small area just touching the chamber is not beneficial to accuracy.

 

[22250imp]

Please explain to me what people are talking about when they talk about potential problems with belted cartridges.

I have 7RM and have a 6.5 RM that's shot out....I'd like to be better informed before I build another 6.5 RM,

Yes 6.5 Rem Mag. The barrel is shot.....deep excessive fire cracking in the throat and a deep wide parallel crack in the riffling at the muzzle.
I bought the rifle used and believe the previous owner got it HOT. The rifle was also dropped muzzle down onto something hard. There is a dent in the barrel at the muzzle. The rifling with the crack in it runs right up the the dent.
Pics attached....not the best resolution....but kind of tells the story

 

[436]

If you like the belted cartridge concept here's a great read on the H&H cartridge you might like.

https://revivaler.com/the-300-holland-holland-magnum/

 

[CatShooter]

NEVER?

Well... yes there is. When I'm making brass for another (obsolete) cartridge which does not have a belt. In fact, I'm working on just such a project currently. Then I get a new reamer and new headspace gauge to go with it which headspaces off the shoulder. Then I turn off the belt.

There are still a few of us left who manipulate existing cases to produce obsolete cases or difficult to find cases. We also make our own dies out of necessity as well for the same reasons.

Just goes to prove that old saying:

Never say Never.

I'll say NEVER, cuz your example is out of context to the original post...

"Many of us can also turn the belts off of belted mags allowing the headspace to shift to the shoulder. A new HS gauge is required."

That refers to removing the belt and leaving it in the original calibre. And no company makes headspace gauges for belted cases to headspace on the shoulder... they all measure the belt to bolt face headspace.

so I will spell it out for those that have problems reading and understanding plain Engrish.

There is never a reason to remove the belt on cases that will be fired in the original chamber/calibre. You simply adjust the die to headspace on the shoulder. It could not be easier.

 

[trhall]

Please explain to me what people are talking about when they talk about potential problems with belted cartridges.

I have 7RM and have a 6.5 RM that's shot out....I'd like to be better informed before I build another 6.5 RM,

Yes 6.5 Rem Mag. The barrel is shot.....deep excessive fire cracking in the throat and a deep wide parallel crack in the riffling at the muzzle.
I bought the rifle used and believe the previous owner got it HOT. The rifle was also dropped muzzle down onto something hard. There is a dent in the barrel at the muzzle. The rifling with the crack in it runs right up the the dent.
Pics attached....not the best resolution....but kind of tells the story

The Secret Service, FBI, and Military all use belted case 300 win mag. They also all use the Larry Willis Collet die to alleviate brass thinning just above the belt after multiple firings. Larry recommends every third firing and this has worked out well for me over the last 15 years.

 

[bigngreen]

so I will spell it out for those that have problems reading and understanding plain Engrish.

Excellent job of spelling that out in plain English there rock star!

 

[MudRunner2005]

The Secret Service, FBI, and Military all use belted case 300 win mag. They also all use the Larry Willis Collet die to alleviate brass thinning just above the belt after multiple firings. Larry recommends every third firing and this has worked out well for me over the last 15 years.

I'm 100% sure the federal government and 99.9% of the MIC doesn't reload their own ammo. The only exception being the AMU (and other similar military units of each branch) for competitions and testing.

 

[JohnCZ]

I have always full length sized my 300wm and there isn't an issue. If I remember right, this was spewed onto the internet as marketing hype for the then NEW belted magnums.

 

[MudRunner2005]

I have always full length sized my 300wm and there isn't an issue. If I remember right, this was spewed onto the internet as marketing hype for the then NEW belted magnums.

You realize that the .375 H&H, (the original "belted magnum" that was the parent case for pretty much all the belted magnums we have today) has been around since 1912, right? And that most of the "new" belted magnums we have today were designed and introduced in the 40's, 50's, and 60's, right?

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the internet wasn't around back then...

 

[Deleted member 25294]

Anyone else need to get on here and reassure themselves that belted mags are the best thing ever..
And anything without a belt is pure marketing hype
Cracks me up fellas

 

[MudRunner2005]

Anyone else need to get on here and reassure themselves that belted mags are the best thing ever..
And anything without a belt is pure marketing hype
Cracks me up fellas

Be careful, don't go looking into a mirror... Your own bias is showing... You know, that thing you were just making fun of because you believe the opposite... But instead managed to make yourself sound just as ridiculous as a non-belted supporter.

I own just as many non-belted, as belted cartridge chambered rifles... Also a couple of rimmed centerfire cartridges... Nobody said anything was the best thing ever, or that it was better than anything else. But nice try at the attempted sarcasm.