Push feed or controlled feed?

[Litehiker]

Again, militaries of the world have been using push-feed bolts for their full and semi-auto rifles and machine guns as well as sniper rifles. Must be working.

Eric B.

 

[alcesgigas]

While the action design was an important attribute of the pre-64, aesthetics also played a major role in the strong appeal of the pre-64 Model 70's. Like the Remington 700 the post 64 Model 70 did not display the level of hand fitting of the components, and utilized what was considered to be the cheap and unsightly "stamped" checkering, used with the Remington 700. The pre 64 Model 70's had used a distinctive oil/varnish stock finish of what was considered a classic stock shape...changed in '64 to the controversial high gloss Monte Carlo style with the stamped checkering. Likewise, the metal work, fiitment, and bluing of the pre-64 which was comparable to many customs of the day was gone. All these changed lowered the cost of the pre-64 Winchester. Management succumbed to the cost accountants that drove the company to cut costs, and copy features and processes of the Remington 700. With the standard of excellence now lowered, Remington seized the opportunity and took Winchester's crippled lead position. Eventually, a new standard was established. This also effected the other Winchester models (ie. 94, 12, 88) which underwent a similar cost cutting exercise creating an instant market for pre-64 Winchester'. The differences in aesthetics between pre and post 64's is instantly recognized with all of these models.all this was my impression having lived through this era.

I put a like on GF's post in

spite of disliking it (?) Imagine how I felt "coming of age--with a job" then learning that the rifle you pined for all those years was replaced with one that didn't need cartridges or bullets. That thing just scared all and sundry to death! No more Lumpy's. As great as the later "Classics" were--and are--they're still unlumped. Well, here's a shot of a M70 bolt made before the war, and assembled and sold in 1942. Even those that are familiar with the true Pre-64 might just miss noticing what those that are "intimate" with Pre-Wars' might insist was a foreign and more recent bolt. See to use a scope on a Pre-War a couple things had to be done--not to mention the receiver's d & t. Nostalgia. Nothing can prevent it nor cure it. Who'd want to anyway?

 

[alcesgigas]

OMG. Got so far from the subject forgot what I intended to say about GF's post. I really didn't like the content, but GF's got boilerplate history there nonetheless.

 

[Code4]

Although crf was soposedly desigined for more reliable feeding under combat conditions. The extraction is amassing...I seen a m70 pre64 crf completely rip off the case head from case on a stuck cartridge....if that's not pulling power I don't know what is...

I'll try again.
Reliable extraction is another feature of a Mauser 98 action. I think this is what you are alluding to.
CRF = Control round FEED. Mauser clearly states this in the patent for the 98 actions and it's also mentioned in pre-WW1 German military documentation as the primary goal for refinement of the '95 Mauser action. There is no supposedly* about it. (note spelling).

The issue was that German soldiers (and poorly trained third world customers) would short stroke the action in battle causing a jam. CRF negates this with control of the cartridge as it leaves the magazine and slips under the extractor before advancing towards the chamber. The second design feature of the Mauser 98 was better control of escaping gases. Everything else was a refinement.

CRF is seen as an advantage in Dangerous Game rifles but even modern actions like the ZKK often have tolerances too fine to prevent jamming in adverse conditions. If a Mauser 98 fails to crf (or extract) then there is a problem somewhere in the action. Feed rails or extractor lip worn or modified, weak magazine spring etc etc..

If you want accuracy, stay with a modern push feed action.

I hope this helps.

 

[therifleman556]

If you want accuracy, stay with a modern push feed action.

I hope this helps.

Had a 98 with a Krieger tube and McMillan stock that would cloverleaf FGMM. I don't think not being push feed was a handicap.

 

[Greyfox]

Had a 98 with a Krieger tube and McMillan stock that would cloverleaf FGMM. I don't think not being push feed was a handicap.

I agree fully with this. Given a quality barrel and action, the accuracy/precision difference beteeen the two designs is nil. The bedding of the traditional CRF's (ie.Winchester, Springfield, Mauser) require an extra measure of attention to fitment, and perhaps trigger work may be required, but the action itself is very capable of benchrest performance. The barrel is far more influencal when considering a barreled action.

 

[CMP70306]

With a 1903, four model 70s, a Mausingfield and a Nucleus I'd say I'm firmly in the CRF camp. For me I simply prefer the feel of the CRF actions and as a handloader I appreciate the fact that I can choose to either drop the case next to the rifle or send it to Timbuktu simply depending on how hard I run the action. Saves me from beating up cases at the range.

 

[whitetail regulator]

I'll try again.
Reliable extraction is another feature of a Mauser 98 action. I think this is what you are alluding to.
CRF = Control round FEED. Mauser clearly states this in the patent for the 98 actions and it's also mentioned in pre-WW1 German military documentation as the primary goal for refinement of the '95 Mauser action. There is no supposedly* about it. (note spelling).

The issue was that German soldiers (and poorly trained third world customers) would short stroke the action in battle causing a jam. CRF negates this with control of the cartridge as it leaves the magazine and slips under the extractor before advancing towards the chamber. The second design feature of the Mauser 98 was better control of escaping gases. Everything else was a refinement.

CRF is seen as an advantage in Dangerous Game rifles but even modern actions like the ZKK often have tolerances too fine to prevent jamming in adverse conditions. If a Mauser 98 fails to crf (or extract) then there is a problem somewhere in the action. Feed rails or extractor lip worn or modified, weak magazine spring etc etc..

If you want accuracy, stay with a modern push feed action.

I hope this helps.

Lol that's funny, I have multiple custom built rifles push feed and crf. My most accurate is a factory boss m70 270 win that will put rounds through the same hole if I do my part and shoot cold bore. I shot a 10 rnd group that measured 7/8" at 500 yrds...yup less that an 1" at 500. Factory rifle, factory plastic stock, factory Hornady ammo. And a totally reliable crf action....this is more accurate than most of my push feed guns that are custom built, more expensive, and way heavier. I thought it was the boss system that made it so accurate, however upon removing the boss and replacing it with a suppressor, it holds the same accuracy....I just got lucky i guess. With that being said, I believe that crf guns can be just as accurate as a push feed