Eradicate the Wolf???!

[HARPERC]

........The biological system that God created, is in a balance and has been for much longer than humanity has existed.......

1) A government committed to secularism, unable to balance even it's check book, will never balance anything.
2) God's balance happens over millennia, swamp gets buried under a couple of hundred feet of ice, and back again.
3) The "balance" or stated goals of the wolf debacle was set in the beginning as a number that would have been manageable, sustainable.
4) The Audubon Society actually joined in the law suit to stop the transplant, as it was bad science, and there were wolves very close to the population goals set in the beginning. Wyoming, and Montana ranchers joined by the Audubon folks doesn't happen every day.
5) Wolf management unfortunately looks just like eradication, differing only in the end point.
6) A recent release by BC indicates an increase in endangered caribou numbers, following spending about a million a year on "wolf management"since 2015. If I recall the quota on female lions was dropped at the same time.

There is a reason they don't transport problem bears, and wolves to California. There's a reason the Seattle yuppie backpackers fought transplanting grizzlies in the Cascades. These things are cool when they kill someone else's wife and kids, livestock and pets.

An area in Wyoming was closed this week as there were grizzlies feeding in the area. If you're late to the party it's not about balance, it's about forcing people off of "public land". The Endangered Species Act is the modern equivalent of decimating the bison to force the natives onto reservations. It's about a few people wanting to play God without the requisite wisdom, or long term view.

 

[Benny338]

It is not Gods order for humans to introduce an animal that is not native to the region. I think a lot more people could have stomached the introduction if it was the Timberwolf that was native to the area. The Canadian grey wolf is significantly larger than the Timberwolf and twice the hunter. when you have animals that are not familiar with them as a predator they don't stand a chance to survive. I have seen first hand on multiple accounts the damage these wolves have done on the elk herds. Throw a lion in with some cattle and see if they have the instincts to survive.

 

[Mike 338]

Hunting wolves may provide an individual some sense of control however it will produce little practical impact on overall numbers. Two things will crash their numbers, disease and poisoning. Law prevents poisoning so... Reduced prey species will weaken pack split-off's and reproduction rates.

All in all, IMO, wolves are here to stay. I haven't seen a shootable deer or elk during my last several seasons. It's probably me but just say'in. I'll probably just keep hunting as always but thinking about taking up fishing.

 

[ddillon]

The topic at hand is questioning the "wisdom" of wolf eradication.

Aldo Leopold covered this topic in the 40s with an interesting study in Yellowstone. Find Find references to three articles below that give more color to the issues around wolf (top predator) necessity in an ecosystem. Yes, some of the reading is a bit "tree hugging" in its presentation, but the message is clear. The wolf serves a purpose in a balanced ecosystem, albeit a threat to adjacent livestock. The wolf's control of elk herds is well documented. As stated in earlier posts, as the prey numbers go up so do the predators and vice versa. Happy reading.

http://articles.latimes.com/2009/dec/13/opinion/la-oe-gibson13-2009dec13

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leopold_Report

https://www.firstlighthabitats.com/blog/carnivore-coexistence-leopolds-wise-words-part-1

 

[Hand Skills]

I like that the OP brought up bison. So many people love or love to hate Canis Lupus.

Why is there no love for the original stewarts of the land?

As much as hunters like to focus on biology with a heart beat, there is strong evidence suggesting the carrying capacity of our land is not what it used to be.

Some dumb hippy farmers think we have soil problems. Carbon defficient top soil can't hold water. As a result, when it rains the water runs off in flood events.

We're told this is global warming. Then we're told global warming doesn't exist. Scientists have solid evidence of a recurring ice age cycle every 100,000yrs. Who is the emperor? Where are his clothes?

The fact is, there are few places on earth where herds of large herbivores are doing their jobs fertilizing, cultivating and forcing healthy competition amongst native vegetation.

Without predators (like wolves) to move herds of ungulates, the herbivores become parasites themselves. Without pressure they start looking for an easy meal, and now the problem is 3 fold. Not only are they forgetting what their job is, but now they are eating farmer's hay, mingling with medicated bovines where bacteria and disease run rampant.

I normally avoid wolf threads because the tonality often reminds me of children shouting 'my dad can beat up your dad'. This one seems a little different. Elements of spirituality and creation, I hope it stays on track!

Of course, we are developmentally challenged humans, victims of propaganda and fake news. How long will it take before we realize there is more to good management than a controlled predator population?

With 8 billion human mouths to feed on the planet, we are struggling with a global food crisis. Hard to imagine where we would be without Monsanto, Dow and industrial agriculture?

I realize this is a thread about wolves on a hunting website. My intention isn't to take an excellent thread off topic.

I guess my point is, for better or worse, "It's up to us".

Somehow I don't think the creator is going to step in and solve this one for us. Creating some imaginary lines and saying 'well it's up to God, or Biology in there' may seem viable to some given our recent history. Maybe it's a step along the way to admitting we're dumb, we messed up, we don't know how to fix it?

On the other hand, we have some pretty smart people out there. Sharing information has never been easier. I believe the challenge here is more in selecting the right experts to represent our interests, rather than compartmentalizing issues and arguing semantics.

FWIW, I write this as a Canadian. Maybe it's not my place to comment but we have much in common north of the imaginary line we call a border. To me it seems pretty simple. Use herbivores to intensively graze plants. Together they will take carbon from the air and put it into the ground. More organic carbon in the soil allows for better water retention, moving us from draught/flood to a more balanced precipitation cycle. Australia is way ahead of N.A in this respect. See Dr Christine Jones.

Forums are a great place to put our proverbial heads together. I think digging deeper into ecosystem management is important for future generations to have any hope of living with, and not separate from creation.

Great thread - please let me know if I'm off in space here. Happy to remove rather than derail!

 

[Toolhand]

There is a video discussing trophic cascade which shows the positive effects the wolves have had on the entire Yellowstone ecosystem since their reintroduction in 1995. It is an interesting watch. That being said I have no idea what the population is like today and have no biased either way being from the southern US I have no interaction with wolves Closest thing we have are coyotes and shoot them whenever possible. The video is called how wolves change rivers. I would link it but have no idea how.

 

[nerka83]

I am seeing posts that essentially, call for the eradication of wolves, Any of us that hunt and consider ourselves conservationists in any way and part of a bigger system than ourselves, see about as much sense in that, as the eradication of the American bison. The biological system that God created, is in a balance and has been for much longer than humanity has existed. I came to the conclusion that I will never forgive those that used governmental policy and business interests to decimate the bison and just hope that each of us can look at what we see as a nuisance species and still see God's place for them.
Yeah, yeah, I know the place for them is at the tip of my 130gn GMX bullet, but you folks know what I'm saying. Cheers

 

[Hand Skills]

Good vid @Toolhand



Narration: a bit over the top?

 

[trhall]

Good vid @Toolhand



Narration: a bit over the top?

Unfortunately, like many shows on this topic it's pretty slanted in favor of wolves being the predator to manage the game. I would much rather it be me doing the herd management!

 

[Hand Skills]

If you're moving your herd every day, you're doing it right! If not, maybe you can learn from the wolf

Joel Salatin has a lot of interesting data on herd management.

 

[Barrelnut]

My thought on it from another thread.
https://www.newscientist.com/articl...-endangered-status-because-its-just-a-hybrid/
IMO this article opens the discussion to endangered species and their offspring and just what we humans should be doing to preserve and protect species in the wild.

The article seems to state that hybrids (in this case the red wolf) should also be protected. It then goes on to state that maybe, since the red wolf is a hybrid and not protected that the grey wolf should be reintroduced as a top predator in the south!

This is crazy and highlights the flaw in the environmental protectionist thing. They are so concerned with protecting the existing gene pools and their external influences from humans, that they are actually starting to stifle the expansion of gene pools through selective evolution, and by that act are destroying what they strive to protect. You can see this with the spotted owl and the condor. After all the protection these creatures have received, nature is replacing them with the barred owl and turkey vulture respectively.

All the environmental protectionist have done over the last 30 or so years is to ruin small towns, economies and livelihoods. Now with the wolf, they are doing it to hunting, which does sustain a lot of rural regions of the US with the income provided by catering to hunters.

I believe we would all be better off, if we as humans, stopped trying to protect species that are being selectively replaced by evolution. That selective evolution is what will really protect and ensure that Gods green earth survives in the future.

I also believe that we, as humans, have a right to protect wildlife that benefits us, like our big game herds. They provide out communities with income, food, and the ability to pass down cherished traditions, the way God pretty much intended.

 

[Hand Skills]

I love to hear what old trappers have to say on the subject. Not many of those guys left. Wonder how we'll manage without them...?

 

[nerka83]

I am seeing posts that essentially, call for the eradication of wolves, Any of us that hunt and consider ourselves conservationists in any way and part of a bigger system than ourselves, see about as much sense in that, as the eradication of the American bison. The biological system that God created, is in a balance and has been for much longer than humanity has existed. I came to the conclusion that I will never forgive those that used governmental policy and business interests to decimate the bison and just hope that each of us can look at what we see as a nuisance species and still see God's place for them.
Yeah, yeah, I know the place for them is at the tip of my 130gn GMX bullet, but you folks know what I'm saying. Cheers

I'm a hunter also. Have been for over 70 years. That said, I'd like to post another
facet to the wolf story. Part of my family is in the cattle business located just south of the Oregon border. OR has it's problems with the wolf and I doubt they'll go away.
Lupus has been in CA for several years now. It has caused some depredations. It is protected by those in govt. power, and wolf lovers, tree huggers etc. Mostly urbanites.
Just the mere presence of the gray wolf in an area on Private ground causes weight loss
and stress. Acres of feed unused, due to wolf presence. No one particularly gives a **** what happens to those that suffer financial loss. After all, beef comes from the meat market and grocery outlets. We were once rid of them, but not any more.
State trappers cannot place sets for coyotes in a wolf inhabited area. A huge fine
exists for those caught reducing the wolf population. This is an ongoing wreck that I see no end to unless control by hunting is approved. I live in a state that is anti-**** near everything and it's frustrating because those in control are clueless.
Good luck with what you plan to do and think fmj.

 

[Barrelnut]

I love to hear what old trappers have to say on the subject. Not many of those guys left. Wonder how we'll manage without them...?

Not to worry. I'm sure there will be endless trap lines where the old trappers go.