Wilcat Bullets...Why haven't BC's been posted?

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Guest, Jul 18, 2005.

  1. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

    Yea, I know I've seen posts in June saying the BC's were super high, then in July some comments about how these were told to richard grave by the diemakers.

    Richard seems like a nice guy, but a lot of guys are buying thses bullets and Real BC data is needed.

    Cauterucios BC's are real. Sierra's are real. How about real info from real testing?

    If I was selling bullets, I would supply accurate BC data like Sierra. especially when I claiming the highest BC's in SEVERAL different calibers.

    Lets get the facts.....no excuses!
     
  2. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

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    Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

    You may recall a thread I started some time back asking this very question. Unfortuantely, my order was canceled, and I therefore, could not test the 230gr 308s. However, there were some folks who said they would be interested in testing them by shooting them through a pair of chronographs (along with all of the other approprate data) if shooters were interested in providing 20 bullets of so to test. HBC on BRC volunteered to test 6mms and the 7mm-338 calibers were covered by two shooters on this board. If you are interested in having some bullets tested, then there are readily avalable sources for accurate, measured BCs.
    Just a quick addon. Most of the BCs that are being circulated are provided by the die makers, however, Fiftydriver does have some BC data that he has extrapolated from drop data and comeup data. Just be sure when you hear a number, you know where it comes from.
     

  3. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

    John M.

    I do not believe there have been any excuses given???

    I have tested several of the Wildcat Bullets using bullet drop to derive BC. Many on this board have said this is to simplistic to get accurate ballistic data from. My be but it allows me to hammer chucks are +1000 yards so its close enough for me and my uses. Here is a list of the BC values I have tested using bullet drop tests.

    257
    100 gr BCFBHP...................0.420
    130 gr BCFBHP(heavy Jacket).....0.500
    130 gr BCFBHP...................0.550
    156 gr ULD RBBT.................0.820

    270
    169.5 gr ULD RBBT...............0.740

    338
    300 gr ULD RBBT(hunting)........0.810

    Soon to come will be the 175 and 200 gr ULD RBBT in 7mm, 350 gr ULD RBBT in 338, 100 and 107 gr in .224" and several weights in 6.5mm.

    Your comments about the REAL bullets on the market is a bit amusing. If you do not think the Wildcat Bullets are "REAL" bullet by all means don't use them. But I assure you, every bullet I have shot compared to the Sierra MK was not even a contest ballistically.

    Oh, and I would like to test some of those Cauterucio 107 gr ULD RBBT .224", 156 gr ULD RBBT in 257, 200 gr ULD RBBT in 7mm and 350 gr ULD RBBT in 338.

    Wait a minute those are not REAL bullets, but the same bullet weights in Wildcat Bullets are REAL. They are sitting here in front of me!!

    Keep shooting your Real bullets please so Richard can keep up with my bullet orders faster!!!

    Richard is a one man opperation that offers more bullet weights and designs then any other custom bullet maker I know of. He also depends on his customers to test the bullets and find out the true BC for themselves as this is the only REAL way to get an accurate BC value.

    IF you think the BCs listed from Sierra or anyone else are valid across the board you are sorely mistaken. They are all simply a rough estimate. The only way to get an accurate BC is to test in your rifle, at your velocities in your conditions, everything else is also nothing more then a prediction, just like what Wildcat Bullets is offering.

    Buy some and test them if you want to make sure these are REAL bullets. Then you can tell us how they compare to the other bullets on the market.

    Richard is not claiming anything. I have made vastly more claims then Richard ever has and anything I type is listed as either developed from bullet drop testing over 800 to 1000 yards or as a prediction from the die makers.

    Not one time has Richard ever claimed a BC value without stating that they are a prediction, which again is all you are getting out of the Sierra listings as well as the BC will change in every different rifle, velocity or area.

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  4. ricka0

    ricka0 Well-Known Member

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    Re: Wildcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

    [ QUOTE ]
    If I was selling bullets, I would supply accurate BC data like Sierra.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    How about a little diplomacy? Sierra is a big company trying to maximize profits. Allocating resources to publish BC data is consistent with that goal.

    Richard is a small company trying to make the best hunting bullet (he has succeeded). He is too busy to keep up with orders right now - gathering BC data would hurt production.

    I'll be measuring the BC of his bullets eventually - but it's not my highest priority. While drop tests may not accurately measure BC, they do accurately measure relative BC (which is more important). Richards bullets drop less than others - which implies they have a higher BC (or perhaps a violation of PV=nRT is going on /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif)

    Kirby is right on. It's how the bullet performs in your gun that counts. Perhaps Richards bullets greatest attribute is how they work on impact - far superior to MK's - and something you can't test target shooting.
     
  5. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

    I have to admit... I have been waiting for the same thing..

    Richard is a nice guy had a great conversation or 2 via e-mail with him.. but no data means none of my money gets spent... I don't have that much time/money to waste... not bitching just stating facts...

    NO ONE has tested any of the 30 cal bullets????
     
  6. 4ked Horn

    4ked Horn Writers Guild

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    Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

    I am hoping to try out some 30s if I can get the time to load them up and shoot them. When I do I will post what I find from my .308. Don't hold your breath though, I was hoping to have loaded and fired these bullets almost a month ago. Things didn't work out the way I wanted.

    But the info is coming.
     
  7. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

    If the lazy smith that has my 300 RUM will get the bbl put on it in the near future, I'll have some data on the 210s.

    I've shot some of the 169.5s, and a BC of .550 seemed to fit my drop chart. This was only out to 500 yds though.
     
  8. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

    Ditto what Ric said.

    I think richard is a nice guy trying to make the best bullets around. Hats off to him. I do not knock him one bit.
    I hope he succeeds as I'm sure we all do.

    I'm not getting personal, I'm strictly talking business.
    I own my own company and the biggest part on any company is marketing. Marketing bullets includes testing and reporting BC's. I'll tell you that Cauterucio's BC's are as right on as they can be. Bob, also makes only a handful of calibers. He's an older gentleman and does it more out of Hobby than anything else. Richard is looking to build a business that produces an vast array of calibers and in doing so HE must provide ballistic data.

    In my conversations with Richard he HAS stated BC values. He did say they were estimates but he implied that testing would occur after he made them.

    There is a company called "North Fork Bullets" who makes big game bullets in various calibers and they do not state BC or even care to. The difference is that they are being marketed for their ability to make quick kills not long range accuracy.

    Richard is making bullets for long range and the BC estimates are higher than every other bullet ever made in equal caliber and weight!!!
    If you are going to make those claims then you MUST back them up with real testing data or BS will be called. Like it or not.
    I hate repeating myself but I have to, and I must shout as well:
    IF YOU CLAIM YOUR BULLETS ARE THE BEST LONG RANGE BULLETS THEN BC TESTING MUST BE DONE!

    Kirby, don't take it personal.
     
  9. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

    Ric Horst,

    AM I wrong in the comment that anytime you buy a box of bullets you have never shot in your rifle that you are running the risk that they will not shoot well in your rifle???

    It does not matter the make of the bullet there is always that risk that you may be wasting your time and money on testing a new bullet.

    I just do not understand your reasoning here. Its not like the Wildcat Bullets are extremely expensive, only slightly more then comparible weight Sierra MKs.

    You have to develope a new load for any new bullet so I just do not see your point with the comment you made. Thats like saying you will not buy a pound of powder unless youare gauranteed to get the exact fps listed in the loading manual??!!

    As Big Bore has properly stated, Richard is an extremely busy guy just like everyone on this site is. He is a full time bullet maker again who offers more bullet options then anyone else I am aware of. On top of that, he is a full time farmer which takes up more time then most people could ever realize.

    Having the time and resources to test every bullet he produces just simply is not practical from a shop the size of his.

    This is why he relys on his customers to test his bullets and report back to him with all data they are able to find out. BC, velocity potential, amount of fouling with a certain bullet, accuracy and terminal performance. IF you want to be part of this development then order a box of bullets, test them and let Richard know how they shoot.

    IF you do not want to order some of his bullets and do the exact same thing you would do anyway with any bullet you have not tested then don't, no big deal.

    Just knowing you from your posts I know for a fact that any bullet you load and shoot is fully tested and that you do not rely on published data to develope your ballistic charts. Its no different here.

    The main issue is that Wildcat Bullets is not a household name like Sierra so guys want proof before they will try the bullets. Well, its coming and has already came for many of his bullets. IF the 224, 257, 6.5mm, 270, 7mm and 338 all shoot well and produce the lowest amount of bullet drop available, what reasoning do you have to think the 30 cals would be any different /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

    Kirby, these claims about these bullets are so great that testing must be done!

    THESE ARE BOLD CLAIMS! BACK THEM UP!

    Stop talking like a polititian.

    Why don't YOU get them tested? You link them to your "257 allen magnum" you probably make more money hawking your rifle than Richard makes with the bullets. You have an economic interest here as well.

    Also, you posted BC's on this thread so matter-of-factly even though there has never been real testing.
    Plus this is the FIRST time you did so.
     
  11. 4ked Horn

    4ked Horn Writers Guild

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    Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

    There is a hamburger shop where I used to live. They serve the hamburgers with or with out cheese, pickles and onions. They dont have bacon or lettuce or tomato. They dont serve hot dogs or chicken or fries. They have a very loyal following. In fact the little shop is standing room only at lunch EVERY DAY. If you ask them they will say they serve the best hamburger in town. If you ask the customers they will say the same thing. Can they point to any formal survey? No. Do they care? No. If you don't believe them or if you want lettuce on your burger then they are not the shop for you. It is your right to shop elsewhere. But if you dare to try a burger you might find, as so many others have, that the burgers are the best you have ever had. You may discover something fantastic.

    Hope this helps. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    BTW the shop is Hudsons Hamburgers (Huddies) in Coeur d'Alene Idaho. Est in 1930 something if I remember right.
     
  12. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

    Just measured a few 142gr 6.5 ULDs Richard sent me. I should add, he sent these samples to me free. Nice fellow.
    Running the numbers through MPM, JBM, QuickDesign, and a spreadsheet of mine, I get:
    BC= .624 @ Mach3(3350fps ICAO)
    BC= .596 @ 3000fps ICAO

    This pretty much matches Berger 140VLDs(depending on the lot). Also, this software does not take the rebated boat tail effect into account, and assumes a linear BT angle. I don't have a clue as to this effect one way or the other, and would like to know. I don't think it's huge though.

    Thats one bullet. One guess.
     
  13. sullijr

    sullijr Well-Known Member

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    Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

    Thanks for your post.I have been trying to think of a way to put the nay sayers in their place, well done.I went to a rifle rodeo in June, 3 of the 4 buckle winners were using Wildcat Bullets not one cared about B.C..The non winners were convinced that maybe they should give them a try.
     
  14. ss7mm

    ss7mm Writers Guild

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    Re: Wilcat Bullets...Why haven\'t BC\'s been posted?

    John M.

    And anyone else that thinks Richard’s bullets have to have data reported for them because you are too lazy to do it yourself, or don’t know how.

    You state that certain companies give you BC data and that makes you happy. I guess it doesn’t take much to make you happy because if you take the listed BC figures by the major companies as gospel and load and shoot accordingly then you are simply showing your lack of knowledge or commitment to the long range game.

    You stated that Cauterucios BC's are real. Sierra's are real. Is this just your belief in what they say or did you actually test them? I would guess that you are just accepting what they say. Too bad, because if you had tested them you would be far better off.

    Listed or posted BC claims by any company are simple not accurate 100% of the time in everyone’s gun, under all conditions. Yet you seem to imply that you live and die by whatever the larger companies tell you.

    You state that claims have been made. I have never seen where any “claims of BC figures” have been made. I have seen numerous instances of computer projected numbers being shared with the knowledge that they were computer generated numbers. I have seen BC numbers posted by Kirby that resulted from testing he did with his gun under his shooting conditions. No claims, just factual statements.

    If you, or anyone else interested in the Wildcat bullets, are truly interested in long range hunting then you would do what Kirby mentioned and try the bullets in your gun under your shooting conditions. Simply take a BC number that makes you happy and will be reasonably close and go for it. You can then make adjustments to the BC numbers and happily go about your merry way. Tell yourself they are “real” and all is well.

    If you want to use multiple chronographs, or any other method, then go for it, but quit saying that Richard has to do the testing, and has to list and post the numbers. He doesn’t have to do anything and actually that’s better as far as I’m concerned because in the end I know more about what I’m shooting than if I relied on something I’m told.

    I’m sure that Kirby will post BC numbers from his testing done with the 7mm in the near future. Will I use them without further testing of my own? No! Will I take them as being written in stone and stake my shooting results on them? No! Will I use them as a starting point for my testing? Yes! Have I done any testing of Wildcats yet? Yes, but I wouldn’t list them because they are accurate only for my guns and my conditions, and if they were posted then someone, somewhere would say that they aren’t accurate.

    I would prefer that Richard leaves the bacon, lettuce and tomatoes off of his product. His basic hamburger is what I have been looking for, and I can and will add them as needed.