Why the love for MOA?

Ok Loner, help me out here
Which USO reticle represents IPHY?
http://www.usoptics.com/upgrades.php?recordID=SN9-2200&rectype=Reticle
Which USO scope is available in IPHY?

Start with the moa type 1. It's iphy on my 1.8 x 10 sn-3, so are the turrets.

Read this thread/

Question about my USO scope. IPHY or MOA turrets? - Sniper's Hide Forums

or look at this/

US Optics CMG MOA, RDP MOA and MD MOA (IPHY) • Sniper Company • Optics & Sights

You can specify either when you order, but most are/were made in iphy if you didn't.

I use .238777 as a custom click value in jbm ballistics on the ipod. The custom number
is based on MOA. Like you said Mike with all the toys it is doable 100 ways.

I think you will find that most lupy's have always been inch per hundred on the clicks as well. I haven't followed them for years. Don't know what they are up to as of late.

I should add, my 15 year old 3.8x22 sn3 is 1/4 " turret, mildot reticle. All the fancy reticles were just in there infancy when I got that scope.
 
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The debate between mil and moa will probably go on for years. But since the original question was why the love for moa, then here's the best example I can think of for my personal reasons. I am sure some others can relate this to their style of hunting.

As I wrote earlier, I started using reticles to range before we had rangefinders that would reach out to beyond 300 yds on game animals. I used those same reticles for holdover, because there weren't many affordable scopes that had accurate click adjustments either......4 minutes on the dial would move the poi 6 minutes type of thing. Takes me a long time to trust a scopes adjustments and repeatability.

My first rangefinder was the Bushnell 400.....sure, it would range 400 on a stop sign or a shiny pickup truck, but try to get a range on a coyote that's 300+ yds away! HA! Even the 800 yd model that came next wouldn't range a coyote much past 400 yds! Yes, todays rangefinders are much better and needless to say, much more precise than reticle ranging...........as long as we've got time and the right scenario to use it.

Calling coyotes is not about "long range shooting", but sometimes we have to take a long shot. Here's the example I am getting at.

Said coyotes are coming in to the call. We're all camo'd up and hiding in the shade. We're sitting on our butts (in order to see over the sagebrush) and the rifles are resting on cross sticks. The pair of dogs are doing the usual, they're coming in toward our downwind side. By time we see them, we realize that they are just about to get our scent and leave the country PDQ.
First thing we have to do is get them to stop long enough to get on them with the rifle, and fire before they decide to get downwind any further.

Do we have time to pull the rangefinder out of our pocket and get an exact range? NO.
Do we then have even more time (and additional movement) to look down at the butt of the gun to see how many minutes or mils we gotta dial? NO.
Do we have the time (and even more movement) to reach up and dial the dope? NO............By time we do all that stuff, the dogs are moving again and we've lost our shot.

Same situation if we call in and shoot 1 coyote but the other takes off running. We're sometimes able to get the 2nd one to stop for a shot, but they don't usually stop for long. Darn sure not long enough to go through all the above range - look - and - dial steps.

Now here finally is where the moa (quickly and crudely reverted to IPHY) comes in. First off, I'd memorized my holdover amounts out to 500 yds. Secondly, I'd previously visuallized and memorized the image of a coyote against the reticle. I knew that a 9" coyote would cover 3 "minutes" in the scope at 300 yds, 2.5 minutes at 350 yds, 2 1/4 minutes at 400 yds, ect.
Crude, yes. Exact, no. But it gets me close enough to put the bullet in the boiler the majority of the time out to 400 yds in a rush and 500 if I can take my time and think/prepare/steady a little.

Can the same thing be done with a mil reticle.? Yes, but every increment I mentioned is less than 1 mil, so now we're trying to break down the spacing to 1/10's to even get close to the same precision as using 1/4 minutes. And again, we're doing this in a hurry with coyote fever making our nerves a wreck.

Medium range hunting is often not about absolute precise range, it is often about how quick can we put the bullet in the vitals from a less than ideal position. I've lost count as a hunting guide that I've whitnessed people take too much time trying to range and dial for a simple 300 yd shot. It's too much movement and just gives the animal enough information to get them nervous. Especially antelope it seems. Take that time instead to get steady and focus on making the shot, calming the nerves, Get the breathing under control, ect. The buck in my signature didn't give me time to even think about dialing a knob. It was hurry up, go prone, lead by two body lengths and squeeze.

When a coyote is between 300 and 400 yds; "close enough" on the range will mean the difference between a dog down and one that got away. I want "close enough" to be quick and intuitive, IPHY is the quickest way I know of (for my brain anyway).
 
SBruce I was going to bring up coyote shootin too. I started doing all my ranging first
and drawing a map of the rocks, trees and bushes I would range. Doesn't always work
but on many shots you already know the range he's at as soon as you see him. As
the memory gets worse , the more I need to glance at the crude layout I draw.
 
SBruce I was going to bring up coyote shootin too. I started doing all my ranging first
and drawing a map of the rocks, trees and bushes I would range. Doesn't always work
but on many shots you already know the range he's at as soon as you see him. As
the memory gets worse , the more I need to glance at the crude layout I draw.

Yea, I hear you. Nowdays, I try to range prominant spots before I start calling (better rangefinders today). I still find myself cross checking the estimated range with the reticle when I can though......old habits die hard I guess.:)
 
For me, distant groundhog hunting(my theme) provides a benefit of more time.
It's not a shoot as fast as possible challenge, but more about precision.
It would be the same with deer if I hunted em.

I range with my spotting glass(Geovid), so when I see them, I have the range instantly and accurately. I put together a strategy and if shooting from current position, glance at my card, and dial elevation before I even get behind the gun. About ~20sec, but I have plenty of time.
Setup, side focus, level, consider my drift holdoff, and wait for a good shot.

I've been using Mk4 scopes for hunting(8.5x25 M1). These actually are MOA(1.047") rather than IPHY.
They aren't 'Hunters-MOA'/'Made-up MOA', or NF MOA(which is 1.09").
I test them when I set the elevation ADJUSTMENTS plump to a ScopeLevel.
I would be ok dialing 1/4IPHY, 1/4MOA, 1/10MIL, or 1/253440MILE.
But I MUST have laser ranging, and a fine reticle subtension(I prefer/use a med-fine crosshairs).

Yeah, thread started about MOA, but then OP conceded that nothing about it mattered to him anyway. So we might as well discuss it anyway we want.
 
Hey it's all good anyway. I think it gives guys that have been using the systems for a long time some addtl. perspectives on the subject and more knowledge (thks. Lou, et al) as well. I'm sure the guys responding to this thread aren't the only ones going away with some more tidbits of knowledge that can be drawn upon when needed in the future...here, here.

If i'm not mistaken the Zeiss Rapid Z also uses IPHY stadia lines (.5" i think) for rangefinding though it's practical application is much more than advertised. Interestingly though those stadia are kinda' thick for that app. IMO it could actually be beneficial to begin subtracting a stadia thickness for the subtension unit (something Darrell Holland now teaches at his school). I did this at this shoot a couple years ago (MOA Corporation Homepage) using a US Optics spotting scope with an MOA reticle and figured i'd just use 1.00 IPHY as my unit of subtension and got very close to calculating the size of some of the targets out to as far as 750 yards (better than using 1.047 IPHY). Also did it on an antelope buck several years ago while hunting coyotes and was just a couple yds. off at ~300 yds. or so using the Ball. Plex reticle in a 3-12x handgun scope i was using at the time.

I 'll never forget what the guy told me that got me started on applying this math in the field. He said "it takes just the right sort--basically a marksman that has just a bit more than a passing interest in math." He's right!
 
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the debate between mil and moa will probably go on for years. But since the original question was why the love for moa, then here's the best example i can think of for my personal reasons. I am sure some others can relate this to their style of hunting.

As i wrote earlier, i started using reticles to range before we had rangefinders that would reach out to beyond 300 yds on game animals. I used those same reticles for holdover, because there weren't many affordable scopes that had accurate click adjustments either......4 minutes on the dial would move the poi 6 minutes type of thing. Takes me a long time to trust a scopes adjustments and repeatability.

My first rangefinder was the bushnell 400.....sure, it would range 400 on a stop sign or a shiny pickup truck, but try to get a range on a coyote that's 300+ yds away! Ha! Even the 800 yd model that came next wouldn't range a coyote much past 400 yds! Yes, todays rangefinders are much better and needless to say, much more precise than reticle ranging...........as long as we've got time and the right scenario to use it.

Calling coyotes is not about "long range shooting", but sometimes we have to take a long shot. Here's the example i am getting at.

Said coyotes are coming in to the call. We're all camo'd up and hiding in the shade. We're sitting on our butts (in order to see over the sagebrush) and the rifles are resting on cross sticks. The pair of dogs are doing the usual, they're coming in toward our downwind side. By time we see them, we realize that they are just about to get our scent and leave the country pdq.
First thing we have to do is get them to stop long enough to get on them with the rifle, and fire before they decide to get downwind any further.

Do we have time to pull the rangefinder out of our pocket and get an exact range? No.
Do we then have even more time (and additional movement) to look down at the butt of the gun to see how many minutes or mils we gotta dial? No.
Do we have the time (and even more movement) to reach up and dial the dope? No............by time we do all that stuff, the dogs are moving again and we've lost our shot.

Same situation if we call in and shoot 1 coyote but the other takes off running. We're sometimes able to get the 2nd one to stop for a shot, but they don't usually stop for long. Darn sure not long enough to go through all the above range - look - and - dial steps.

Now here finally is where the moa (quickly and crudely reverted to iphy) comes in. First off, i'd memorized my holdover amounts out to 500 yds. Secondly, i'd previously visuallized and memorized the image of a coyote against the reticle. I knew that a 9" coyote would cover 3 "minutes" in the scope at 300 yds, 2.5 minutes at 350 yds, 2 1/4 minutes at 400 yds, ect.
Crude, yes. Exact, no. But it gets me close enough to put the bullet in the boiler the majority of the time out to 400 yds in a rush and 500 if i can take my time and think/prepare/steady a little.

Can the same thing be done with a mil reticle.? Yes, but every increment i mentioned is less than 1 mil, so now we're trying to break down the spacing to 1/10's to even get close to the same precision as using 1/4 minutes. And again, we're doing this in a hurry with coyote fever making our nerves a wreck.

Medium range hunting is often not about absolute precise range, it is often about how quick can we put the bullet in the vitals from a less than ideal position. I've lost count as a hunting guide that i've whitnessed people take too much time trying to range and dial for a simple 300 yd shot. It's too much movement and just gives the animal enough information to get them nervous. Especially antelope it seems. Take that time instead to get steady and focus on making the shot, calming the nerves, get the breathing under control, ect. The buck in my signature didn't give me time to even think about dialing a knob. It was hurry up, go prone, lead by two body lengths and squeeze.

When a coyote is between 300 and 400 yds; "close enough" on the range will mean the difference between a dog down and one that got away. I want "close enough" to be quick and intuitive, iphy is the quickest way i know of (for my brain anyway).

well said!
 
SSCoyote, something I never see talked about is on a RF plane scope is the diopter
adjustment. IT makes the reticle grow and shrink the same as a pair of readers I
believe, I don't see how it can't. On a FFP it's no problem, on a RFP it should cause
some considerable deviation in trying to range?
 
SSCoyote, something I never see talked about is on a RF plane scope is the diopter
adjustment. IT makes the reticle grow and shrink the same as a pair of readers I
believe, I don't see how it can't. On a FFP it's no problem, on a RFP it should cause
some considerable deviation in trying to range?

The dipter adjustment on any rifle scope moves the ocular lenses and does not affect the scale of the reticle with respect to the target image. It does have a small but equal effect on how large both the target and the reticle appear to be. On a SFP scope the magnification adjustment (a function of the elector assembly) changes the apparent size of the target but not the apparent size of the reticle.

This diagram might help:

scope.jpg
 
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Not accurate with terms I'm sure, but;
With FFP reticle subtension is more or less fixed/constant. So it grows with the magnification.
This my main disappointment with FFP, as it degrades the aiming precision I need for long range shooting.
With SFP the reticle subtension decreases with magnification. Very precise.
But, it's not linear. A SFP reticle does grow with magnification, just no where near the amount a FFP reticle grows.
With this, I am unable to see a fine crosshair on one of my Mk4s at 8.5x, as it's just too fine. I can see it at ~12x, and perfectly at 25x. But med-fine crosshairs are atleast visible at the lowest setting while being fine enough at the highest setting.
So it's easy enough predict that Leupold doesn't offer a med-fine crosshair reticle!
This was provided by Premier Reticles -in the past..

It is apparently unfortunate that scope makers don't actually use their own products. They would learn so much if they did. Many don't discuss things like reticle subtension, because they don't even know what their scopes actually provide. Leupold is one of them oblivious to it.
Just ask the 'custom shop', they haven't a clue.
Go to March & ask.. They don't know.
Now get into diopter values,, woosh,,, right over their heads!
I have an issue with NF there..
 
Loner,

The only scope I've ever had that seemed to change the reticle size a noticable amount when adjusting the eyepiece is my new Sightron SIII.

Perhaps they all do a little, or to some fraction, but once the eyepiece is in focus for my eye; I lock it down or make an index mark and it doesn't get moved again. From that point on, hopefully it's a fixed dimension that's still close to moa or IPHY.

I always verify on the range against a grid or yd stick anyway, and if I plan on shooting out to 600 yds using reticle marks and holdover; I'll also verify my POI relative to the reticle on the range out at 400, 500, and 600 yds.

Once again, before we had good rangefinders and scopes that tracked the adjustments accurately, this is what we had to do. It still works today, not the preferred method especially beyond 600 yds, but it does work.

Mike, curious whats your issue with NF?
 
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With NXS scopes, I'm forced to crank the eyepiece all the way into the stops to get a reticle focus. With this, I lose a significant amount of magnification.
With a Mk4 I only need to set the eypiece about half way inward, and I lose no power.
So an NXS scope set at 32x ends up exactly matching a Mk4 at 25x.
And the Mk4 has more adjustment than a 32x NF..
I also hate that a NF eypiece turns with power changes, and that their scopes weigh a full pound too much.
 
Mike,

Our eye's must be totally opposite:) I end up having to turn out the eyepiece quite a ways on my scopes to get a sharp crisp reticle.?

I too like the lighter weight of the Leupold Mk4.

I don't know why NF went to the rotating eyepiece crap on the NXS. The compact NXS doesn't have that, and neither does my original NF, but it was way pre-NXS days.?

I hadn't thought of the ocular lens position affecting the power...humm... Is that just because of the rotating eyepiece??
 
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