elkregulator
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tag....
Why I don't shoulder shoot elk!
- Thread starter bigngreen
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winmag
Well-Known Member
Good pics bigngreen,
I made that mistake once. It was a hard lesson. 3 days later, after passing on other critters,(couldnt just give up. I was sick) I finally caught up with him. Two guys shot 8 times, & one of them hit it in the neck, & dropped it. (lucky shot....) Ya.... Anyway, I got down to them to confirm it was the same bull id hit 3 days earlier, so I could finally put that sick feeling to rest. They thought I came to claim it, wich was NOT the case. After a quick explination I was alowed to examine my poor shot placement. The hole, & dried crusty blood didn't lie. My shot was almost identicle to your pic, but without an exit.
Now, I've killed my share of Elk, & I'm definately not above breaking one down if the conditions are right, but since that day, I've shot a lot lower. IF I go thru a near side leg bone, the angle will be in line with the vitals or I pass on the shot. I've never been a fan of a high shoulder shot. I always strive for behind the shoulder in line with the off leg, but sometimes you don't get that shot. I take what shot is presented to me or pass alltogather.
I for one greatly apreciate the pics, & comparison of that shoulder socket! I will continue to err on the safe side, & keep em in the lower two-thirds if I have to break them down.
I made that mistake once. It was a hard lesson. 3 days later, after passing on other critters,(couldnt just give up. I was sick) I finally caught up with him. Two guys shot 8 times, & one of them hit it in the neck, & dropped it. (lucky shot....) Ya.... Anyway, I got down to them to confirm it was the same bull id hit 3 days earlier, so I could finally put that sick feeling to rest. They thought I came to claim it, wich was NOT the case. After a quick explination I was alowed to examine my poor shot placement. The hole, & dried crusty blood didn't lie. My shot was almost identicle to your pic, but without an exit.
Now, I've killed my share of Elk, & I'm definately not above breaking one down if the conditions are right, but since that day, I've shot a lot lower. IF I go thru a near side leg bone, the angle will be in line with the vitals or I pass on the shot. I've never been a fan of a high shoulder shot. I always strive for behind the shoulder in line with the off leg, but sometimes you don't get that shot. I take what shot is presented to me or pass alltogather.
I for one greatly apreciate the pics, & comparison of that shoulder socket! I will continue to err on the safe side, & keep em in the lower two-thirds if I have to break them down.
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HAMMERHAND
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- 97
SO if I am to understand your story correctly, the bull was running when shot at a distance of 350 yards, (running downhill as in forward momentum) when the bullet hit him ran him through the shoulders and broke vertebrae? And as the story also implies, the bull was getting ready to tumble when someone shot him in the neck getting ready to tumble at a distance of 350 yards?? Since the bull didn't make it far before someone else had shot him, what makes you very certain he wasn't going to die after gravity and momentum finished with him? I would have never found out myself, because I'm not irresponsible enough to shoot at a running animal, much less an elk; nor would I have the skill to hit one in the neck tumbling at 350 yards with a single shot. That bull would have lived to grow beyond 300 inches if it were my shot to take, and I could argue that shooting a running adrenaline charged elk in the boiler room could have the same ugly outcome as you're talking about into the black timber.
The shoulder blade articulates like a human shoulder blade. It can be moved up and down to accomodate uneven terrain, similar to many other animals. As such the top of the blade can move in relation to the spine. The blades show an un-even bullet trajectory (strong uphill or downhill angle). I've personally never seen a softpoint bullet leave such even neat holes in bone and such little damage (especially after breaking two vertebrae on the exit). The hole is more typical of what I see with more solid constructed bullets. If we do the analysis of the physics of the 150 grain 7mm slug, and the sheer foot poundage it imparts to bone material, especially when we push it INTO the spinal column regardless of whether we sever it or not, it TYPICALLY imparts instant incapacitation to the animal similar to someone bashing a human in the spine with a sledgehammer without cutting the spinal cord....paralysis, and often resulting in massive intantaneous failure of nervous system function and organ failure.
The cow example you gave is what happens when you give a knucklehead a big rifle with poor bullet selection....IMO, if the bullets didn't completely penetrate, they were inadequate for the purpose.
The second picture you're showing is essentially a knee or an elbow in human equivalent. I've never advocated an elbow or knee shot....barnes bullets or 8 mag aside. As far as bowhunting goes....who in hells hockeysticks would try to shoot through bone with an arrow anyway?? Apples to bananas I say.
I've had to shoot a bunch of elk twice with lung shots, but have yet to shoot a single deer, elk, or antelope more than once with a good double SHOULDER (not elbow) shot, but all of the animals have been standing still, perfectly broadside. Its a pretty simple deal....knowing your anatomy and knowing where to hit an animal is the key.
The lesson for the day is that a 7mm with 150 grain softpoint bullets is a bad choice for shooting running elk at 350 yards. Unless you consider shooting at any animal that you respect at 350 yards is a dumb thing to try in the first place
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I'll tell you what....I've shot at a bunch of running coyotes at those distances, and most people don't even fathom what kind of lead it takes to hit those targets with a rifle, much less small targets like shoulders and necks. I'd like to meet the fellas that pulled these shots off....I think I could learn something from them.
The shoulder blade articulates like a human shoulder blade. It can be moved up and down to accomodate uneven terrain, similar to many other animals. As such the top of the blade can move in relation to the spine. The blades show an un-even bullet trajectory (strong uphill or downhill angle). I've personally never seen a softpoint bullet leave such even neat holes in bone and such little damage (especially after breaking two vertebrae on the exit). The hole is more typical of what I see with more solid constructed bullets. If we do the analysis of the physics of the 150 grain 7mm slug, and the sheer foot poundage it imparts to bone material, especially when we push it INTO the spinal column regardless of whether we sever it or not, it TYPICALLY imparts instant incapacitation to the animal similar to someone bashing a human in the spine with a sledgehammer without cutting the spinal cord....paralysis, and often resulting in massive intantaneous failure of nervous system function and organ failure.
The cow example you gave is what happens when you give a knucklehead a big rifle with poor bullet selection....IMO, if the bullets didn't completely penetrate, they were inadequate for the purpose.
The second picture you're showing is essentially a knee or an elbow in human equivalent. I've never advocated an elbow or knee shot....barnes bullets or 8 mag aside. As far as bowhunting goes....who in hells hockeysticks would try to shoot through bone with an arrow anyway?? Apples to bananas I say.
I've had to shoot a bunch of elk twice with lung shots, but have yet to shoot a single deer, elk, or antelope more than once with a good double SHOULDER (not elbow) shot, but all of the animals have been standing still, perfectly broadside. Its a pretty simple deal....knowing your anatomy and knowing where to hit an animal is the key.
The lesson for the day is that a 7mm with 150 grain softpoint bullets is a bad choice for shooting running elk at 350 yards. Unless you consider shooting at any animal that you respect at 350 yards is a dumb thing to try in the first place
.I'll tell you what....I've shot at a bunch of running coyotes at those distances, and most people don't even fathom what kind of lead it takes to hit those targets with a rifle, much less small targets like shoulders and necks. I'd like to meet the fellas that pulled these shots off....I think I could learn something from them.
Topgun 30-06
Well-Known Member
So why would you shoot at small running coyotes, but not at a larger elk? Both are living, breathing creatures that deserve to be shot properly with as close to 100% certainty that the shot will lead to an immediate, humane death IMHO! Is it because an elk is a regal, majestic animal and a coyote is just a varmint in your mind? I was enjoying your analysis of the situation until you ended your post the way you did!!!
Tikkamike
Well-Known Member
because it is JUST A COYOTE and it is a whole lot easier to kill a coyote than it is an elk. the will to live and the absolute strength and toughness is not there with a coyote, sure they can get away with a bad shot but but after all it is just a coyote and they dont actually do anyone any good other than fun targets.
Topgun 30-06
Well-Known Member
Funny, but I was asking the person that made that post and not for your opinion. Yours doesn't surprise me at all when you have admitted violating the law shooting at them illegally right from your vehicle on roads! We'll forget about that one though because you already gave your excuse for that one! It might be easier to kill a coyote, but I guarantee you are way off base as far as hitting a small animal like that compared to a huge elk.
Tikkamike
Well-Known Member
Pretty sure This is an open forum so my opinion is just as welcome as yours. I am 99% sure I have killed more coyotes than you and 100% sure I have killed more elk than you so I believe I know what it takes to kill both.
Would this refer to ground squirrels and rock chucks as well. If so I am in real trouble! I have never waited for a broadside shot on a prairie dog!
And shooting them on the run is a real riot!Coyotes ARE varmints right? So they have different rules and laws pertaining to how they can be dispatched. Coyotes are tough but in a completely different way than elk. They seldom suck up multiple bullets from magnum rounds.
Scot E.
HAMMERHAND
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- Apr 7, 2011
- Messages
- 97
SHOT AT.....SHOT AT.....SHOT AT.....that's what I wrote...."SHOT AT". Never said I actually hit one, and never said at what point in my life I did so. I would agree with you that ANY animal deserves as instant of a death as possible. YES. Do I think I was a moron for shooting at a running animal that I had a low probability of hitting on the first shot....YES, ABSOLUTELY. There is no other way to learn a lesson about how far you can shoot behind a running animal without actually shooting at a running animal. Do you disagree with me about how difficult it would be to double shoulder, much less neck shoot a bull elk running or tumbling down a hill at a distance of 350 yards? Especially when the point of the OP was to illustrate WHY you shouldn't shoulder shoot an elk, because the target was so small?
I think we've all done things that we aren't proud of. Would you eat a coyote?? My guess is no. Would you shoot one if given the opportunity?? My guess for 9 out of 10 guys is yes. So that in itself shows a societal dis-regard in itself towards creatures like coyotes compared to elk. My guess is if it were the LAW to eat every coyote you killed (like deer, antelope, and elk) that fewer of them would be shot and the country would be over-run with them, but thats a whole other thread.
I will agree with Tikkamike on the difference between the two targets. You have an animal with thin brittle bones, very thin hide, and weighing all of about 35 pounds compared to something that has heavy thick hide, thick massive bones, and a weight of 250 pounds to over 1,000 pounds. Where is the similarity??? You can hit a coyote virtually anywhere with any modern varmint gun and round killing it instantly....try using the same gun on elk, and you have a disaster on your hands. "Two different animals" as they say.
There's so much more that could go wrong with a big bodied, heavily constructed animal like an elk despite the size difference, especially when the person behind the rifle isn't paying attention. Lets face it, the reason that *MOST* big game animals end up crippled or lost is because the human made an error in judgement of bullet selection for the critter and distance, adequate caliber choice for the circumstance, and the #1 is knowing when or when not to shoot. NOT shooting is one hell of a lot better than crippling or losing an animal regardless of where you like to place the shot IMO.
Hopefully this answers some questions for you. Hopefully now it is apparent that the way I ended my last post was purposeful.
Topgun 30-06
Well-Known Member
TikkaMike---You don't know me from a can of paint, so how can you say you're 99% sure that you've shot a lot more coyotes and elk than I have, LOL! You can sure come up with some good ones! One thing I can guarantee that you've done more of than I have and that is illegally shoot at an animal from a roadway! You stated in a post earlier this year that you do it all the time in Wyoming and it's definitely illegal to shot at anything unless you're outside the fenceline or the barrow pit of the roadway. It's right in the Wyoming laws and I've never broken that law, so if you violate that one and brag about it I wonder what else you do illegally---just sayin because all I can do is go by what you say on the Forums and not guess about you like you're doing me!!! PS: I've shot enough different animals since I started hunting in 1953 that I quit counting decades ago because numbers don't mean squat!!! It's the getting out in the outdoors that's the biggy for me and anything I kill and consume is a bonus.
Tikkamike
Well-Known Member
Well your always spouting off like you know so much about hunting (in Wyoming specifically ) but your from back east Michigan or something and really don't know much about This place. As far as shooting coyotes from the highway. Yeah its illegal bit you would he hard pressed to find someone from here that thinks that's unacceptable but that is neither here nor there. Bringing up something non related to the argument is what I call "arguing like a liberal" and the amount of animals killed is relevant to the topic. Because its about where to and Where to not shoot elk. After you have shot a bunch of them you kinda figure out What does and does not work. Once you have a few under your belt you will get it.
Catahoula
Well-Known Member
Hey BigGreen,
I have to respond AGAIN. You say that you have shot and cut up several elk. Reading all of this makes me sick. I am 51 years old and have cut elk and shot elk since I was 18. I have a B & C Bison in the book killed with a 25-06 shoulder/lung shot. Got him in the Henry Mountains in Utah in 1992. My first shot was about 50 yards. It did take 2 more to bring him down. Gotta love those 100 grain Partitions. I really don't believe the long shot story you are telling. This forum is a really friendly forum. You opened a large can of worms with your B.S.
Kirk
I have to respond AGAIN. You say that you have shot and cut up several elk. Reading all of this makes me sick. I am 51 years old and have cut elk and shot elk since I was 18. I have a B & C Bison in the book killed with a 25-06 shoulder/lung shot. Got him in the Henry Mountains in Utah in 1992. My first shot was about 50 yards. It did take 2 more to bring him down. Gotta love those 100 grain Partitions. I really don't believe the long shot story you are telling. This forum is a really friendly forum. You opened a large can of worms with your B.S.
Kirk
Tikkamike
Well-Known Member
That's pretty uncalled for. Tell are a different design than elk. I have shot many elk in the shoulder and never had one survive it but I'm Not about to call the man a liar.
