Why are all Remingtons Single Shots?

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by dwm, Mar 25, 2003.

  1. dwm

    dwm Well-Known Member

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    Why does Remington put so much freebore in thier chambers?

    If I load so that the bullet is 0.005 off the lands, the loaded round does not fit in the magazine.

    What is up with this?

    I sort of understood with the 7mm RUM. It is based on a really long case and that may make it hard to fit into the magazine.

    But the 7mm SAUM makes no sense.

    The 7mm SAUM should have been based on a long action Rem 700. Then maybe I could get a cartridge with a bullet 0.005 off the lands into the magazine.

    Someone please explain to me why there is so much freebore in these chambers ...

    Doug

    PS. My 25-06 works great 0.005 off the lands and they fit into the magazine.
     
  2. smoak

    smoak Active Member

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    I have the 300RUM, and I make the OAL so that it is a hair shorter than the magazine. It is still way far from the lands, like 3/10 of an inch. [​IMG]
     

  3. jcpython357

    jcpython357 Well-Known Member

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    Doug, If you call Rem. they'll tell you, we make the chambers to a SAAMI spec. which I guess is like the standard size for a certain chamber that was set by SAAMI. The reason you can get your 25-06 .005" off the lands and still fit in your mag.is because the magazine is made for a myriad of cartridges, some of which are longer than a 25-06. I got the same problem when shooting 168MK in my 308,.010" off the lands makes for a length of 2.910" but I use benchrest followers on all my varmint rifles, I chose to shoot single shot. With the 7saum, since it's oal makes it a short action cartridge they put it in a 'short action'. You might still get excellent accuracy being off the lands a bit, my 6mm Rem. gets consistantly under 3/8" being .050" off the lands. Answer to your last question is they don't want you to blow yourself up in case you put the bullet to close to the lands, it's called lawyer-proofing of America. [​IMG] Jay P.S. You should see the freebore on Ruger rifles, WOW.
     
  4. dwm

    dwm Well-Known Member

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    Smoak, does it shoot well with the bullets seated 3/10 from the lands?

    I have never been able to get anything that had to jump that far to shoot very good.

    Maybe I should try a reverse ladder test with seating depth.

    Keep seating them incrementally deeper until they shoot good groups.

    Anyone tried this?

    Doug
     
  5. milanuk

    milanuk Well-Known Member

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    Some guns do shoot ok w/ a lot of jump, though I don't think all bullets do. My .308 has a 1-12" twist, so in theory it should shoot 155gr bullets fine (maybe not as well as a Palma gun 1-13 or HBR 1-14") but reality is a different story so far. 168 and 175gr SMKs and 185gr VLDs don't seem to care a lick if they are seated to the lands (can *almost* reach w/ the 168), or to 2.810" or so, which, w/ a 175gr SMK, constitutes a 0.155" jump. They still go where they are pointed. Now just pointing them consistently is the next challenge [​IMG]

    Monte
     
  6. Tim Behle

    Tim Behle Well-Known Member

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    When I load test, I seat them firmly into the lands. Run through the ladder method and pick my load that works best.

    I then keep this charge and start seating them deeper into the case until I find the seating depth that gives me the best group with that load.
     
  7. dwm

    dwm Well-Known Member

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    I'll have to try that.

    So far I keep seating the bullets forward toward the lands until I get the best group.

    Never thought of starting into the lands and working back shorter.

    Do you find that you can go back far enough to fit them in the magazine well?

    I don't really like my bullets seated way down into the case.

    Personally, I feel all the new short mags need to be long actions.

    I feel that bullets should be seated such that the base of the bullet is right at the base of the neck. This is optimal.

    When seated this way, the bullets are sticking way out of the case and don't fit in short action magazines or barely work through the short actions.

    Put them in a long action and everything is fine.

    May have to take my new Rem 700 7mm SAUM and make a 223/243 WSSM out of it. I think they need a magmum bolt face.

    The 223/243 WSSM will probably be dimmensionally correct with the Rem 700 short actions and magazines.

    Doug
     
  8. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    My experience with the Ruger 338win is it touched the land on both of them I had with Barnes, Swifts both. Those might have been an exception but they both reached.

    You can get longer boxes for most of them to allow you to stay on the lands, but the factories just try to make everything work in the same length actions, if you know what I mean.

    It seems the SA Remington is at it's max as far as box length goes, unless you're willing to take metal off the forward feed ramp and reduce the lug abutment thickness... not a good idea. I'm in the same boat with this 243win of my daughters. Rebarreling to 6.5 WSSM, that's an idea. This barrel fouls somethin fierce too!

    I start load development seating them on the lands, usually they perform best near this point and not .100 - .200" off as some boxes only allow. Better alignment during engraving the closer they are.

    If you get your best load .150" off the lands then start altering seating depth, keep in mind you are changing barrel time just as you did with altering the charge weight, so if you start close to where most shoot well (.000" - .050" off) you will only need to alter barrel exit time a little vs. alot. You may even want to go back and check that the charge weight is still stable on both sides of your chosen load when you are done determining optimal seating depth, or just determine the depth first and double check it after load development is done.

    I shoot three 3-shot groups with each load increment or seating depth change to get an agg instead of basing it on one group. I load ten rounds with each change made to the load, the first round is a fouler. After 100 rounds I know what the load will produce with that powder and bullet tested. If you watch point of impact shift, this will tell you where the load stabilizes. The gun should group better at this point too, if not I usually switch to a different bullet. Kind of a modified Audette ladder method, but more conclusive I feel.

    Like DWM, I think the the WSSM cartridges would work fine in the short actions railed for the WSM, the WSM works fine in the long action railed for the Ultra mags, after all the body dimension remains the same diameter so why wouldn't it. The boxes are already long enough to keep the bullet base up at the neck-shoulder junction or beyond the doughnut where it should be. Bolt face DIA should be the same as the others, they are just shortened cases as I'm told.

    [ 03-31-2003: Message edited by: Brent ]
     
  9. The dog hunter 2

    The dog hunter 2 New Member

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    I would agree with Tim Behel. When working up a new load I always start into the lands, just at the touch point. Then work futher into the lands as I go. A word of advice start out reducing your powder charge, working into the lands increases pressures.
     
  10. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

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    My Remington .338 Win lets me seat 250 SGK's into the lands and still fit in the magazine. The cartrdiges are way longer than factory, but they are a reltively short magnum to begin with, so there is room to work with. This rifle shoots extremely well.
     
  11. demarpaint

    demarpaint Well-Known Member

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    Now I know why my smith recommended a long action to build a 6.5 WSM. I always felt the long action was a better design for any round.

    Frank D
     
  12. eb

    eb Active Member

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    If you really wanted to seat to the lands you could have the barel set back and rechambered , but it sure sucks that the factory goes out of thier way to sabotage accuracy. My ruger 25 06 really improved with bullets just off the lands, but like you guys i have a few that run out of magazine room to soon. ebb