Which Published Berger BCs Are From Predictions Rather than Measurements?

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For those unfamiliar with our work, for the last decade, my colleagues and I have published more scientific work in external ballistics than most other researchers in the US, except perhaps for those directly affiliated with bullet companies. I've published papers (with Don Miller) where we improved the original Miller formula to more accurately compute stability for plastic tipped bullets, including using BC measurements to accurately detect the onset of instability as drag is lowered from 1.2 to 1.0. This improved twist formula has been incorporated into several ballistics calculators, including JMB and Patagonia's Cold Bore. After Don passed, colleagues and I used this new experimental method to modify the stability formula to more accurately treat open tipped jacketed rifle bullets.

We've also developed relatively inexpensive methods (<$1000) to quantify the drag effects of pitch and yaw and the damping of pitch and yaw in flight. This allows both military and civilian shooters to see how pitch and yaw are affecting the drag of any bullet of interest without much more expensive techniques like time on the ARL spark range or radar. We've published several papers evaluating the accuracy of manufacturer's BC specifications, and past publications have focused on the significant inaccuracies of some vendors like Nosler, as well as the smaller inaccuracies of other vendors.

Our first experience with inaccurate BCs from Berger came in 2005/2006 when we had a VLD fail to expand on a 550 yard shot on a deer. We'd corrected the scope adjustment for the actual measured drops at long ranges, but we trusted the published BC value when computing impact velocity and energy. The deer was found a few days later, center punched through both lungs by a bullet that penciled through. We'd developed methods for measuring BCs because we needed to accurately assess pistol bullet BCs for our studies of terminal performance in deer. Measuring the VLD BC yielded a number that was 20% below Berger's published value.

Shortly after that, Berger hired Bryan and the BC of the 115 grain .257 VLD was revised downward from .523 to .466. After some exchanges with Bryan, the BC of 0.419 was attributed to dimensional variations from worn dies, and Berger sent us new bullets. Measuring the BCs of the new bullets showed that they were within spec, and we were aware that Berger had adjusted their BCs to Bryan's fired values. We went on our merry way believing that we could trust the accuracy of all of Berger's published BCs.

Over time, our relationship with the DoD grew closer, and various DoD parties became more interested in fielding more commercial off the shelf products (COTS). These interests have led to lots of product testing on our part. In addition to publishing info related to various companies who seem to be exaggerating their published BCs, we've published material showing how unreliable lead free primers are, how much lot to lot variations Hodgdon Extreme powders really have, how bad some lead free bullets are, measuring bullet friction and effects of bullet coatings on friction, and also testing terminal performance of several .30 caliber bullets at low impact velocities. We've also tested lots of products to better inform our methods and theoretical models by using a wide array of products in test cases rather than limiting ourselves to military components.

Having experienced the accuracy of Berger bullets, our attention was drawn to their 62 grain flat base .224 bullet for several reasons. At the same weight and nearly the same advertised BC (0.291) as the M855, loads could be developed that were the ballistic equivalent. We expected it to be a more accurate and more precisely manufactured bullet (it is), which would make for interesting comparisons in things like bore friction, stability, pitch and yaw, etc. We also became interested in the 52 grain Berger flat base bullet as an accurate bullet as an additional test case for the new methods and formulas being developed. Given the much publicized revision of Berger BCs that had occurred in 2009 we had no cause to doubt the accuracy of the published specs.

We were surprised when BC testing showed both bullets to be significantly lower than Berger's spec, with the 62 grain varmint bullet 16% low (0.245) and the 52 grain bullet 8% low (0.179). We'd spent hundreds of dollars on bullets, thousands on rifles and equipment, and invested hundreds of man hours on these and some other bullets that were needed for various projects. Fortunately, the news broke on the 300 grain .338 bullet failing to meet its spec before we invested in an expensive .338 Lapua for a wind drift project. As usual, Berger bullets always showed impressive accuracy and drop could be corrected with simple scope adjustments, but wind drift was greater, terminal velocity was lower, and lower BC bullets have their sonic transition at a shorter range.

When Berger was informed about the lower BCs of these varmint bullets, they refused to directly answer the question about whether these BCs have actually be measured in firing tests or whether the published BCs were based on a theoretical model. This was surprising because in 2009 Eric Stecker had asserted that BCs of the whole product line were being revised "to Bryan's fired numbers." After they refused to directly answer our inquiry about whether these two BCs were actually measured, we reviewed the history of their published BCs and produced the above graph showing that apparently 30 or 31 of the 66 revised BCs do not seem to have been measured.

In the same way that product problems with Ford SUVs may not directly impact Ford truck drivers, Berger's misstating specs for their flatbase varmint and target bullets may not directly impact shooters of their boat tail bullets. But honest drivers of Ford trucks would say that Ford owes SUV owners honest specifications on things like horsepower and gas mileage. Treating customers right and well with the best available specifications for some products does not really help the customers of the products who are being misled regarding product specifications.

Much earlier in my career, I worked as an engineer for a couple of companies in roles closely related to product specifications. These companies faced ongoing temptation to rationalize that certain product specs weren't really important to most customers, even though they were clearly advertised in marketing materials. I always had tremendous zeal to ensure our products met all the marketing specs. I resigned from one company who refused to be honest with our customers. At another company, I insisted that factory tests be implemented that ensured all our products met the advertised specs. As the senior engineer responsible for both design validation and factory tests, my refrain was "fix the product, not the tests" when other engineers and management approached and requested that the tests be modified to pass and ship defective product. I've always defined defective product as product not meeting the marketing specs.

I still carry this zeal for customer advocacy and product quality with me today. Products that are marketed to DoD, law enforcement, and the shooting public should meet their marketing specs. While this is obvious for things like ballistic helmets and vests, we believe it also applies to ammunition and components. Would having the best available ballistic helmet justify basing the minimum penetration velocity spec of a 9mm bullet on a theoretical value that was 100 ft/s higher than what was later obtained by an independent party in actual testing?
 
where we improved [CHANGED] the original Miller formula to more accurately compute stability for plastic tipped bullets,

modify the stability formula to more accurately [IN OUR OPINION] treat open tipped jacketed rifle bullets.

So... You changed existing methods and formulas (Industry standards?) and got different numbers as a result? Wow what a phenomenon....

I have no doubt you are a intelligent human. I just think your strategy is not working here, Like a few have said, If we can plug in said BC's to our calculators and POI is spot on at 500,...800,...1K,...1300...ETC. Why should anyone concern them self's with your modified math for calculating numbers? That is all this average idiot is looking for, I have no need or desire to push numbers around my desk all day just looking for that inaccuracy (Actual or skewed math).

Keep digging though, Eventually you wont be able to reach a keyboard.

FWIW, I am not a Berger "fan boy" I have reloaded many more of others bullets then I have Bergers. I love how accurate they shoot, How spot on there BC's have proven to be but don't like how they explode game animals.


Carry on...
 
Like a few have said, If we can plug in said BC's to our calculators and POI is spot on at 500,...800,...1K,...1300...ETC. Why should anyone concern them self's with your modified math for calculating numbers?

How many are getting accurate drops for the 30 different bullet models Berger has not actually measured the BCs for?

How do a few "spot on" POIs for the bullets with measured BCs help the errant POIs, retained energy, and wind drift for customers of bullets with inaccurate, theoretical BCs?

We are not concerned with "modified math" for the Berger bullets without experimentally based BCs, we are concerned with actual measurements. Berger claimed their published BCs were all based in actual measurements, but many of them were based only in Bryan's modified math.
 
AS YOU CAN SEE MICHAEL THE HARDCORE BERGER BOYS WONT ACCEPT THE TRUTH. AS A MATTER OF FACT THEY JUST DONT GET IT, THEY ARE THE REAL AXE GRINDERS POISONED BY A FEW.:rolleyes:lightbulblightbulblightbulb.STAY ON IT.
 
Anyone that resents the presentation of accurate product data has an agenda. Otherwise, why all the fuss?

This Forum provides hard core LRHs an open exchange of information, which allows avid members to research, identify and select which products they'll spend their money on to support their LRH pursuits. Members that attempt to silence and suppress the presentation of carefully researched data only diminish the value of this Forum to the membership. The credibility and reliability of the data doesn't get much better than data researched and peer-reviewed prior to publishing. So why the effort to silence and suppress this information, other than some members don't like the findings/consensus the data represent? What about the other members that value the information?

What about the members that don't shoot bullets that are commonly used, and haven't been thoroughly vetted and reported on by the membership? I surely value accurate BC values straight from the manufacturers. If I can't depend on the bullet manufacturers' product specifications, I value it from Bryan Litz, Michael Courtney, or the testing results of other Forum members. Based on my experiences with advertised bullet BCs, in many cases I value the independently determined bullet BC information more so than the manufacturers' advertised specifications.

Similarly, members that attempt to silence the expression of other members' experiences, findings, and opinions based on product use - even though those experiences are not carefully researched and documented - also diminish the value of this Forum to the membership. Allow some benefit of the doubt that members can apply their own intuition to sort out the facts from fiction. Generally, the presentation of individual experiences from a number of members eventually leads to trends, consensus, and useful information.

And members that don't value, or even resent, information presented in a Thread? Ask yourselves who's forcing your participation?
 
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Michael

I admire your steadfast dedication to product quality (meeting specs). It is important. Not just a month ago I received a rifle scope that was not even close to meeting several key specifications including weight. I was surprised to say the least. We are all lucky that such a thing is somewhat rare - at least with rifle scopes.

As to bullet BCs - they are an important element in the decision to purchase a bullet used for long range shooting so it is worth some attention. Though I do verify BCs with live fire, I will not be a happy camper if I find a bullet doesn't meet published values by a significant margin as it degrades what I thought I could achieve with the bullet. In general this has not been a problem for me - but that doesn't mean it will stay that way. Keep up the good work.

Phorwath

Thank you for your comments.
 
I admire your steadfast dedication to product quality (meeting specs). It is important. Not just a month ago I received a rifle scope that was not even close to meeting several key specifications including weight. I was surprised to say the least. We are all lucky that such a thing is somewhat rare - at least with rifle scopes.

Funny you mention the scope thing. We have a lot of optical talent in the group and some time ago we gave some consideration to branching out and developing some real, rigorous, and repeatable testing of scopes for quality using a well defined test metric. But unlike many questions in ballistics, there are no real fundamental issues that can be addressed at the same time. Optics is settled science; whereas, there are a lot of open questions remaining in ballistics.

Another detractor for the idea of testing optical sights was the cost. In bullet testing, we purchase the vast majority of the bullets we test to avoid cherry picking by manufacturers sending us material they have more confidence in than the typical stuff they ship. That's much harder to do when you are testing scopes. Independent funding to test 10-20 top end scopes would be much harder to come by than measuring BCs for a 10-20 popular bullets.
 
We used to use the Berger 62gr Varmint bullet as our primary bullet out of our 22-250's, we take great pains to calibrate all aspects of our ballistic programs, verifying entire turret travel, quality and proven chronographs and Kestrels and we have many cold bore coyote kills to 800+ yards and a pile of deer and antelope from close range to over 600 yards. All using the published Berger BC at the time.

Same drill with the Berger 300 OTM but sub 1/2 MOA to 2400 yards, built a 300 Win mag that will stack the 215's on a basket ball size rock at 1800+ with the BC on the box and validated data in a quality ballistic program.

Definitely not scientific method BUT at the ranges we are validating these rifles you'll see even a few points of BC change a very measurable amount, if it was anything significant it would be so abundantly clear even us common folk can see it.
Personally I don't really care who's bullet it is I validate everything anyway, if the BC needs a little tune, I'm a big boy and can tune it up a little, I've used a number of bullets where no BC was even provided and it's a little more work but not really a big deal!!

Provide data that is relevant to my shooting and I'll use it, so far I see nothing that has any impact on anything I shoot, maybe if there was some data from Cutting Edge bullets or GS Custom bullets that would be helpful!!
 
We used to use the Berger 62gr Varmint bullet as our primary bullet out of our 22-250's, we take great pains to calibrate all aspects of our ballistic programs, verifying entire turret travel, quality and proven chronographs and Kestrels and we have many cold bore coyote kills to 800+ yards and a pile of deer and antelope from close range to over 600 yards. All using the published Berger BC at the time.

Same drill with the Berger 300 OTM but sub 1/2 MOA to 2400 yards, built a 300 Win mag that will stack the 215's on a basket ball size rock at 1800+ with the BC on the box and validated data in a quality ballistic program.

Definitely not scientific method BUT at the ranges we are validating these rifles you'll see even a few points of BC change a very measurable amount, if it was anything significant it would be so abundantly clear even us common folk can see it.
Personally I don't really care who's bullet it is I validate everything anyway, if the BC needs a little tune, I'm a big boy and can tune it up a little, I've used a number of bullets where no BC was even provided and it's a little more work but not really a big deal!!

Provide data that is relevant to my shooting and I'll use it, so far I see nothing that has any impact on anything I shoot, maybe if there was some data from Cutting Edge bullets or GS Custom bullets that would be helpful!!

Great post, thanks for the contribution. Berger's advertised BCs are purportedly averages from 3000 fps down to 1500 fps. Our measured result of 0.245 is an experimental result at both 2950 fps and 2230 fps, showing that Berger's numbers seem off in that range. In a 22-250, you are likely launching those bullets at 3500-3600 fps. G1 BCs of flatbase bullets often increase rapidly as you increase the velocity above 3000 fps.

What are you shooting now that the 62 grainers have been discontinued? We've begun working with the 53 grain VMAX with an advertised BC of 0.290. The .223 Remington likes this bullet and it's money out to 600 yards.

I think the peeps have some Cutting Edge bullets on a shelf in the lab. Which bullets are you interested in? If we have 'em, I bet the peeps can be convinced to load some up and shoot them next time we're in BC testing mode. Feel free to email me at [email protected] . We can't post or publish data without an extensive approval process, but we can distribute many results privately to US citizens as long as we're reasonably certain they won't end up exported, posted, or published.
 
I believe this thread validates what I have said many times before. There are so many armchair posters that just repeat what they have read in other forums or have read repeatedly of false viral information. They have good typing skills and a lot of time on there hands but nowhere near the knowledge of a MIT graduate. So all of us on here as BROS in the same family of minds as far as shooting accuracy goes. Lets get along and learn from who could be helping us.
I have had great luck with some of the Berger bullets and horrible experiences with others. They are no exception or god in the bullet community I believe that many hold them in their mind as the bullet to go to do to armchair posters. That is to bad. There are many other great options out there that would give their combination better results.
If Michael Courtney will respond I believe he to would, unbiased, agree that there is only one method to come the closest to correctly and repeatedly factoring the true BCs.....DOPPLER.. again,only one company uses this.
 
I believe this thread validates what I have said many times before. There are so many armchair posters that just repeat what they have read in other forums or have read repeatedly of false viral information. They have good typing skills and a lot of time on there hands but nowhere near the knowledge of a MIT graduate. So all of us on here as BROS in the same family of minds as far as shooting accuracy goes. Lets get along and learn from who could be helping us.
I have had great luck with some of the Berger bullets and horrible experiences with others. They are no exception or god in the bullet community I believe that many hold them in their mind as the bullet to go to do to armchair posters. That is to bad. There are many other great options out there that would give their combination better results.
If Michael Courtney will respond I believe he to would, unbiased, agree that there is only one method to come the closest to correctly and repeatedly factoring the true BCs.....DOPPLER.. again,only one company uses this.

lightbulbIt's not rocket science ... still the wrong forum to be discussing this issue, it resolves nothing, it's between OP and Berger ... PERIOD!lightbulb
 
I believe this thread validates what I have said many times before. There are so many armchair posters that just repeat what they have read in other forums or have read repeatedly of false viral information. They have good typing skills and a lot of time on there hands but nowhere near the knowledge of a MIT graduate. So all of us on here as BROS in the same family of minds as far as shooting accuracy goes. Lets get along and learn from who could be helping us.
I have had great luck with some of the Berger bullets and horrible experiences with others. They are no exception or god in the bullet community I believe that many hold them in their mind as the bullet to go to do to armchair posters. That is to bad. There are many other great options out there that would give their combination better results.
If Michael Courtney will respond I believe he to would, unbiased, agree that there is only one method to come the closest to correctly and repeatedly factoring the true BCs.....DOPPLER.. again,only one company uses this.

Many I love it when you post about armchair posters, again a veiled attempt at propping up YOUR bullet company, do your research there are more than one company using Doppler and companies who were using it well before your pet company!!


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