What happened to the '06?

[MontanaRifleman]

I get that you know your way around the reloading thing. That isn't what I was asking though (my bad).

I was referring to this part.
"I'm guessing if you were pushing 80K, you would at least be blowing a bunch of primers"
How do you know he isn't at 80K (or higher) or at what pressure primers start to blow?
I don't know what pressure starts to blow primers and I have the testing gear.

Actually, I wouldn't have a clue as to the actual PSI. What I am looking for is brass failure. I have blown a couple of primers which is definitely more pressure than I want to see and I consider it a screw up on my part when it happens. Bottom line is, IMHO, if your primer pockets are holding then your brass is holding up to whatever pressure is on it. IME, If you're not blowing primers you're a safe distance from catastrophic failure and if your pockets are holding up to 5 or more firings then you're running safe pressures whatever they are.

 

[Bart B]

From what I've gleaned from SAAMI, most of the modern belted cases' proof loads are in the upper 80K's to mid 90K's psi range. Rimless ones are in the upper 80K's psi range for the most part, but the .270 Win., .22-.250 Rem., 6mm Rem and .25-06 Rem. proof loads go from the upper 80K's to low 90K's peak pressure ranges . Proof load's primers typically do not blow when tested in barreled actions with dimensional specs met in the critical areas. Which means to me that most of the rimless cases have a lesser ability to handle pressures over 90K psi but a few can handle it safely up to about 91K psi. It probably depends on case wall thickness and design for the most part.

I've shot .308 Win. proof loads with several commercial primers producing their normal 85K to 89K psi and nary a primer was blown in Win. 70 actions nor 7.62 NATO Garand. Also arsenal 7.62 NATO proof loads at almost the same level as .308 ones don't blow primers in 7.62 NATO Garands nor M14's.

 

[X-man]

Actually, I wouldn't have a clue as to the actual PSI. What I am looking for is brass failure. I have blown a couple of primers which is definitely more pressure than I want to see and I consider it a screw up on my part when it happens. Bottom line is, IMHO, if your primer pockets are holding then your brass is holding up to whatever pressure is on it. IME, If you're not blowing primers you're a safe distance from catastrophic failure and if your pockets are holding up to 5 or more firings then you're running safe pressures whatever they are.

If your velocity is within reason then you are correct.
If your velocity is over what is listed in pressure tested data your brass is holding, but you are placing yourself in some form of risk. If you are a few hundred fps over pressure tested data you are in imminent danger.
More than just the brass there is the matter of the action taking the strain...year after year.

The reason I am making noise here is I believe elkaholic has a cartridge about the capacity of the 300RSUAM. Yet he is 250fps over what normal speeds in that cartridge.
Worse than that he is 100fps faster than what is recommended in the 300Win magnum with IMR-4831 by 100fps!

I don't think Elkaholic is stupid or anything else derogatory. I read a few of his posts and he seems totally on the ball.
After the 416 incedent and another friend blowing up a rifle because he could not "read" the pressure in his rifle in the conventional way I bought pressure testing gear.
The truth is you don't need pressure testing gear you just need a chronograph and need to know the cases capacity and you are set.

But that is enough.
The only other guy to raise a red flag was BartB....So that is me done on this subject.

I wish elkaholic well and safe.

 

[bigngreen]

The truth is you don't need pressure testing gear you just need a chronograph and need to know the cases capacity and you are set.

My dad shoots a Sherman case and he punches in his barrel length, powder, velocity, case capacity, and then measurements on the bullet into a computer program and he's running around 62,000 tops, he gets strong pressure signs at 64,000 and if I remember right at 68,000 your case will not hold a primer any more in one shot and brass has flowed. It's just a powly type computer but when you punch in the data and run it over a crony it's dang close so it can't be that far of.

 

[X-man]

My dad shoots a Sherman case and he punches in his barrel length, powder, velocity, case capacity, and then measurements on the bullet into a computer program and he's running around 62,000 tops, he gets strong pressure signs at 64,000 and if I remember right at 68,000 your case will not hold a primer any more in one shot and brass has flowed. It's just a powly type computer but when you punch in the data and run it over a crony it's dang close so it can't be that far of.

The Powley is more of a ballark meter (that I think think the chronograph does just as well).
Even if it was dead accurate are you telling me he can drive 190s at 3050fps at normal pressure?

 

[bigngreen]

The Powley is more of a ballark meter (that I think think the chronograph does just as well).
Even if it was dead accurate are you telling me he can drive 190s at 3050fps at normal pressure?

He shoots the 6.5 version but same case and runs it to the same pressure signs as elkaholic runs and it runs right where he says it does and what we have run right in line with what it should for capacity.

 

[elkaholic]

The Powley is more of a ballark meter (that I think think the chronograph does just as well).
Even if it was dead accurate are you telling me he can drive 190s at 3050fps at normal pressure?

If you are going to continue to beat this to death, you could at least the state the facts as I originally presented them? You talk about 250' faster than a saum. The saum will reach very close to 2900' in some manuals (which I referenced) Also, for some one with the knowledge that you have, you should realize that I also quoted 28" barrel vs. 24" for the saum, AND a longer throat. Sooooooo, what you really are talking here is closer to 150 more velocity than a saum with more useable capacity and a 4 inch longer barrel. I said I was through with this, but I want to make sure that you didn't overlook this!! Does THIS make any sense to you?????...........Rich

 

[MontanaRifleman]

If your velocity is within reason then you are correct.
If your velocity is over what is listed in pressure tested data your brass is holding, but you are placing yourself in some form of risk. If you are a few hundred fps over pressure tested data you are in imminent danger.
More than just the brass there is the matter of the action taking the strain...year after year.

The reason I am making noise here is I believe elkaholic has a cartridge about the capacity of the 300RSUAM. Yet he is 250fps over what normal speeds in that cartridge.
Worse than that he is 100fps faster than what is recommended in the 300Win magnum with IMR-4831 by 100fps!

I don't think Elkaholic is stupid or anything else derogatory. I read a few of his posts and he seems totally on the ball.
After the 416 incedent and another friend blowing up a rifle because he could not "read" the pressure in his rifle in the conventional way I bought pressure testing gear.
The truth is you don't need pressure testing gear you just need a chronograph and need to know the cases capacity and you are set.

But that is enough.
The only other guy to raise a red flag was BartB....So that is me done on this subject.

I wish elkaholic well and safe.

I have to disagree about using velocity and a chrony as an absolute pressure indicator for all the reasons I list in my previous post. I'll also add this.

Off the shelf chronys are not completely reliable instruments. I have seen reading up to 70 fps difference from 2 chronys placed back to back. I have seen the same chrony chrono the same load and avg 50 fps faster in the evening when in shade than earlier that afternoon in the sun in about the same temp. Changes in outside temps will affect pressure and velocity even if the instrument was 100% reliable. Overall, my chrony's give me fairly good info but they have a lot of quirks.

I just did an online check of Hodgdon and Nosler reloadong data for the 7 RM and 160 Nosler bullets. Hodgdon lists a max charge of IMR 4350 @ 59.5 gr with an MV of 2856 fps. Nosler lists 60 gr with an MV of 2998. How do you account for that? That is 142 fps difference in published max velocity using the same powder and bullet.

I have seen 50 fps difference between using RP and WW brass with the same load in my 25-06.

I can get 3200 fps plus pushing 180 E-Tips with RL17 out of my Sako 300 WSM and have been accused of the same thing Rich is being accused of several times in this forum and another. I use the very same pressure signs to determine that max load as I do with H4350 pushing the same bullet out of the same rifle With a max load velocity of about 3000 fps which is very close to published and factory for 180 bullets. Interesting enough is the fact that RL17 could only push 168 TTSX's about 3150 fps out of the same rifle using the same pressure indicators. That rifle happened to like RL17 pushing 180 E-Tips through it. Part of the reason is it was long throated and I loaded the E-Tips to just off the lands which increased case capacity. I could tell a very similar story with my 25-06.

Just wayyyy too many variables and inconsistencies to say for certain that a published load or velocity is the determiner.

 

[X-man]

If you are going to continue to beat this to death, you could at least the state the facts as I originally presented them? You talk about 250' faster than a saum. The saum will reach very close to 2900' in some manuals (which I referenced) Also, for some one with the knowledge that you have, you should realize that I also quoted 28" barrel vs. 24" for the saum, AND a longer throat. Sooooooo, what you really are talking here is closer to 150 more velocity than a saum with more useable capacity and a 4 inch longer barrel. I said I was through with this, but I want to make sure that you didn't overlook this!! Does THIS make any sense to you?????...........Rich

I should have given you credit for the 28 in barrel. My bad!


You never gave me the 2900fps data (that I asked for) so all I have is Hodgdon's pressure tested data and the Nosler manual both of which are 2850ish....So you can't be angry with me on that one. .

I'm not trying to be a dick here.

Just so I am clear.
My 250fps-100fps for the reloading manual discrepancy, 4inches of barrel, and long throat?

Feel free to PM me I don't want to discuss this here anymore.

Cheers

 

[elkaholic]

If your velocity is within reason then you are correct.
If your velocity is over what is listed in pressure tested data your brass is holding, but you are placing yourself in some form of risk. If you are a few hundred fps over pressure tested data you are in imminent danger.
More than just the brass there is the matter of the action taking the strain...year after year.

The reason I am making noise here is I believe elkaholic has a cartridge about the capacity of the 300RSUAM. Yet he is 250fps over what normal speeds in that cartridge.
Worse than that he is 100fps faster than what is recommended in the 300Win magnum with IMR-4831 by 100fps!

I don't think Elkaholic is stupid or anything else derogatory. I read a few of his posts and he seems totally on the ball.
After the 416 incedent and another friend blowing up a rifle because he could not "read" the pressure in his rifle in the conventional way I bought pressure testing gear.
The truth is you don't need pressure testing gear you just need a chronograph and need to know the cases capacity and you are set.

But that is enough.
The only other guy to raise a red flag was BartB....So that is me done on this subject.

I wish elkaholic well and safe.

View attachment lyman saum data.pdf

Here is the data from the LymanReloading handbook (#48)
When I develope a wildcat, the first thing I do is reserch similar rounds, especially in the area of case volume. I then start a few grains low and work up to what I know is absolute max based on what I see with the cases, chronograaph, and how it compares to known data. I then back off from max and try to find the best velocity coupled with good accuracy. I try most of the powders in the burning rate area that I think will work best. In the case of the 300 Sherman, I found IMR 4831 to give both top velocity, and accuracy near max. It happens to fall right in the area of the IMR loads in the saum, although it wasn't the top powder for the saum. I quoted 64 grains at 3050'. You will note on the Lyman data that they do not list the 190 but it fits nicely between the 180 and 200 grainers listed.
The 180 being 64.5 grains, and the 200 62 grains. You will also note that the top velocities listed are in the mid 2900's for the 180 and not too far short of 2900' even with the 200's. This all with a 24" barrel (important to note as mine is 28") Also, as I previously mentioned, my case holds a couple of grains more than the saum and has a longer throat as well. Anyone knows that allows you to load the same charge for lower pressure or bump it up to equal pressure for more velocity. (ARE YOU WITH ME SO FAR)? The avg. of the two top 180 gr. loads is 2942' and the 200's is 2866'. If you avg those two you get 2904' which should be very close to the top load for a 190. (ARE YOU WITH ME SO FAR)? One could speculate that I would gain something from the extra capacity and throating. Let's keep it small and say 25'. Most people would agree that approx. 35' per second for each inch of barrel length applies in this case. So here we go:
4x35=140' + 25' for capacity and throat. for 165'. Add the 2904 + 165 and WOW! It's actually 3069', not 3050'. Imagine that! I don't think there is much room for argument so far, but you never know! Now for the outrageous pressures. If you look over at the right margins you will see pressures listed for IMR 4831 at 64,000 for the 180 and 62,900 for the 200 grainer. WOW! It's actually 17,000 short of 80,000! (ARE YOU STILL WITH ME)? Any more questions boys? If there is, I'm afraid you may have a little "lube on your primer"!!..........Rich

I just posted this before I saw x-mans reply. Maybe Bart has something brilliant to say?

 

[Bart B]

Maybe Bart has something brilliant to say?

Measure that Sherman's psi with good equipment. That'll squelch all the erroneous predictions, guesses, assumptions and SWAG's. And finally get some pressure related facts about it. Then we'll all know where on Santa Claus' Naughty and Nice list we'll get our names listed.

I've seen as much as 150 fps differences in a given set of a cartridge's components across several barrels all the same length. That same load has different peak pressures across each one.

 

[elkaholic]

Measure that Sherman's psi with good equipment. That'll squelch all the erroneous predictions, guesses, assumptions and SWAG's. And finally get some pressure related facts about it. Then we'll all know where on Santa Claus' Naughty and Nice list we'll get our names listed.

I've seen as much as 150 fps differences in a given set of a cartridge's components across several barrels all the same length. That same load has different peak pressures across each one.

I knew this was coming! Here is why I decided to take a stand on this Bart! You are well known on this forum for being the end all of knowledge (in your opinion) and you can't stand it when someone calls you on it! I have (no problem) with people questioning things but even when you are given facts, you never give up anyway. Last year you told one of the very knowledgeable members that he had "no credibility on this forum" Remember that? Probably not! I called you on that "for his sake" and to your credit, you kind of apologized to him. I hoped maybe you had learned something. In conclusion here, I have no intention of buying pressure equipment to satisfy some pseudo intellectual! I would encourage everyone that is really interested in facts to read my post on the Lyman manual and do the math for yourself and when Bart pulls his crap; call him on it!.......Rich
p.s. I'll post your next post for you "you don't have facts unless you have it pressure tested".......Rich

 

[Bart B]

Rich, are your barrel's bore, groove and cross sectional area dimensions the same as ones used in the sites you want me to check out? If not, it's a waste of time as their barrels will not uprovide data good enough for a valid comparison to your barrel.

 

[bigngreen]

So what I'm getting from this is, we are all taking our lives into our hands if each and every one of use does not have pressure data on each one of our barrels.

The BS just sloshed over my chest waders, holy cow