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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Reloading
What first? Powder or seating depth?
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<blockquote data-quote="Fitch" data-source="post: 557827" data-attributes="member: 19372"><p>Before I address the quote below, I promised a couple of pictures that showed the difference between where my dies contact the ogive and the location of the land contact ring as defined by the Sinclair tool I use to measure it.</p><p> </p><p>This is a 50g Nosler BT. I've annotated the picture to show where the Sinclair tool touched it, and pressed the bullet into the seating stem on my Redding competition Micrometer die with finger pressure while twirling it to make a scuffed area that defines where the die touches it. </p><p> </p><p><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/frwillia/Reloading%20Pictures/50gNBTrubbedinReddingCompMicseatingstem-A-C.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p> </p><p>This is another bullet from the same box marked by the Sinclair tool to indicate the ogive/land contact ring and rubbed in the stem of the seating die from the standard Redding Delux 3 die set (not competition dies):</p><p> </p><p><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/frwillia/Reloading%20Pictures/50gNBTrubbedinReddingDeluxSeatingDie-2-A-C.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p> </p><p>The data is exactly as I reported it yesterday. </p><p> </p><p></p><p> </p><p>As stated in my previous post and as supported by the pictures above.</p></blockquote><p>Nonetheless, seat your bullets and measure the OAL to the datum line using a Hornady or Sinclair OAL guage and you'll find that they are very consistent with quality dies and a good press. ...should be less than .001" extreme spread. [/QUOTE]</p><p> </p><p>So I'm right, your original advice on choice of seating dies is incorrect, but it doesn't matter? </p><p> </p><p>Well, I can check the validity of that statement easily enough. I went to the reloading bench and picked up a couple of slip cases of loaded ammo and see if it is true.</p><p> </p><p>Well, not too surprisingly, neither of the first two slip cases of ammo I picket up came close to 0.001" extreme spread in base to ogive contact ring. I originally posted that it would vary by 5 to 10 mils. That wasn't an opinion, it was an estimate based on having measured it. That estimate turns out to be reasonably good.</p><p> </p><p>First slip case had 7 rounds of 7mmMAG ammo (left over from zeroing the scope for the PA senior doe season that begins Thursday), twice fired Win. brass, sized in a FL die to bump the shoulders ~0.002". 150g Barnes TTSX seated using an RCBS Micrometer adjustable competition seating die in a Redding Boss press. Measured the base to ogive distance using the 7mm hole in a Sinclair hex nut and a digital caliper. Tools shown in this picture:</p><p> </p><p><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/frwillia/Reloading%20Pictures/BasetoOgivemeasurementusingSinclairtool-C.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p> </p><p>Got the following pairs of readings for (base to Ogive)/COAL, all are in inches:</p><p> </p><p>2.674/3.313</p><p>2.671/3.308</p><p>2.674/3.309</p><p>2.677/3.315</p><p>2.672/3.311 The Target COAL.</p><p>2.674/3.314</p><p>2.678/3.313</p><p> </p><p>Extreme spread in base to ogive lands contact ring is 0.007" or about 7X your "should" value.</p><p> </p><p>Now, Barnes bullets might be somewhat less precisely formed than say, Hornady, bullets, so I picked up another slip case with 20 rounds of .30-06 ammo that has 150g Hornady SST bullets seated using an RCBS die from the Full Length two die set (part # 14801). Brass was sized to bump the shoulders 0.002". So I measured these using the same tool but sticking the bullet into the .30 caliber hole instead of the 7mm hole, and got these readings for base to ogive distance (base to the ring where the Sinclair tool said the ogive would contact the lands):</p><p> </p><p>2.641</p><p>2.640</p><p>2.642</p><p>2.641</p><p>2.636</p><p>2.644</p><p>2.639</p><p>2.645</p><p>2.642</p><p>2.640</p><p>2.644</p><p>2.640</p><p>2.642</p><p>2.642</p><p>2.640</p><p>2.642</p><p>2.641</p><p>2.641</p><p>2.636</p><p>2.641</p><p> </p><p>That is the sequence in which they were measured. The extreme spread is 0.009" which is actually worse than the Barnes bullets ES of 0.007", but if I'd measured 20 of the Barnes bullets I might have gotten a bigger extreme spread.</p><p> </p><p>Bottom line, your 0.001" Extreme Spread measurement doesn't stand up in a very limited experiment. Getting more data may increase the extremem spread, but it sure as little apples won't reduce it.</p><p> </p><p>Whether the tool is perfect or not, it is very close based on the land marks when I push a bullet lightly into the lands. I didn't bother to measure COAL. And the measurements repeat very well.</p><p> </p><p>I think the Redding Boss is a good press. I think the dies I used are good dies. The Hornady and Barnes bullets are name brand bullets from respected manufacturer's. But I exceeded your extreme spread in both cases.</p><p> </p><p>A theory is only valid until the first piece of data contradicts it.</p><p> </p><p>First you gave me the opinion that I should use good dies that pushed on the bullet where the ogive would contact the lands. I offered observations based on examining my dies which demonstrated that isn't practically possible with any commercially available dies I've seen. </p><p> </p><p>So you backed off and in the quote near the beginning of this post basically agreed that doing what you said I "should" do wasn't possible but then offered a second opinion that it wouldn't matter because if I used good bullets and good dies I "should" get no more than 0.001" extreme spread in base to ogive dimension. That second opinion doesn't stand the test of measured data either.</p><p> </p><p>Most folks are probably loading their ammo pretty much like I loaded the cartridges I measured for this post. The other box of .30-06 ammo loaded at the same time yielded this group in my .30-06 on shots 4, 5, and 6 after using 3 rounds to get the scope adjusted.</p><p> </p><p><img src="http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/frwillia/-06zerowith150gSST59p9gH4350WLRM-1-Anal-GP2.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " style="" /></p><p> </p><p>That's good enough. I didn't measure the base to ogive distance on those three rounds, but they would be expected to be close to the 20 rounds measured because the bullets are from the same box and they were assembled at the same time. </p><p> </p><p>Fitch</p><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="Fitch, post: 557827, member: 19372"] Before I address the quote below, I promised a couple of pictures that showed the difference between where my dies contact the ogive and the location of the land contact ring as defined by the Sinclair tool I use to measure it. This is a 50g Nosler BT. I've annotated the picture to show where the Sinclair tool touched it, and pressed the bullet into the seating stem on my Redding competition Micrometer die with finger pressure while twirling it to make a scuffed area that defines where the die touches it. [IMG]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/frwillia/Reloading%20Pictures/50gNBTrubbedinReddingCompMicseatingstem-A-C.jpg[/IMG] This is another bullet from the same box marked by the Sinclair tool to indicate the ogive/land contact ring and rubbed in the stem of the seating die from the standard Redding Delux 3 die set (not competition dies): [IMG]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/frwillia/Reloading%20Pictures/50gNBTrubbedinReddingDeluxSeatingDie-2-A-C.jpg[/IMG] The data is exactly as I reported it yesterday. As stated in my previous post and as supported by the pictures above. [/QUOTE]Nonetheless, seat your bullets and measure the OAL to the datum line using a Hornady or Sinclair OAL guage and you'll find that they are very consistent with quality dies and a good press. ...should be less than .001" extreme spread. [/QUOTE] So I'm right, your original advice on choice of seating dies is incorrect, but it doesn't matter? Well, I can check the validity of that statement easily enough. I went to the reloading bench and picked up a couple of slip cases of loaded ammo and see if it is true. Well, not too surprisingly, neither of the first two slip cases of ammo I picket up came close to 0.001" extreme spread in base to ogive contact ring. I originally posted that it would vary by 5 to 10 mils. That wasn't an opinion, it was an estimate based on having measured it. That estimate turns out to be reasonably good. First slip case had 7 rounds of 7mmMAG ammo (left over from zeroing the scope for the PA senior doe season that begins Thursday), twice fired Win. brass, sized in a FL die to bump the shoulders ~0.002". 150g Barnes TTSX seated using an RCBS Micrometer adjustable competition seating die in a Redding Boss press. Measured the base to ogive distance using the 7mm hole in a Sinclair hex nut and a digital caliper. Tools shown in this picture: [IMG]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/frwillia/Reloading%20Pictures/BasetoOgivemeasurementusingSinclairtool-C.jpg[/IMG] Got the following pairs of readings for (base to Ogive)/COAL, all are in inches: 2.674/3.313 2.671/3.308 2.674/3.309 2.677/3.315 2.672/3.311 The Target COAL. 2.674/3.314 2.678/3.313 Extreme spread in base to ogive lands contact ring is 0.007" or about 7X your "should" value. Now, Barnes bullets might be somewhat less precisely formed than say, Hornady, bullets, so I picked up another slip case with 20 rounds of .30-06 ammo that has 150g Hornady SST bullets seated using an RCBS die from the Full Length two die set (part # 14801). Brass was sized to bump the shoulders 0.002". So I measured these using the same tool but sticking the bullet into the .30 caliber hole instead of the 7mm hole, and got these readings for base to ogive distance (base to the ring where the Sinclair tool said the ogive would contact the lands): 2.641 2.640 2.642 2.641 2.636 2.644 2.639 2.645 2.642 2.640 2.644 2.640 2.642 2.642 2.640 2.642 2.641 2.641 2.636 2.641 That is the sequence in which they were measured. The extreme spread is 0.009" which is actually worse than the Barnes bullets ES of 0.007", but if I'd measured 20 of the Barnes bullets I might have gotten a bigger extreme spread. Bottom line, your 0.001" Extreme Spread measurement doesn't stand up in a very limited experiment. Getting more data may increase the extremem spread, but it sure as little apples won't reduce it. Whether the tool is perfect or not, it is very close based on the land marks when I push a bullet lightly into the lands. I didn't bother to measure COAL. And the measurements repeat very well. I think the Redding Boss is a good press. I think the dies I used are good dies. The Hornady and Barnes bullets are name brand bullets from respected manufacturer's. But I exceeded your extreme spread in both cases. A theory is only valid until the first piece of data contradicts it. First you gave me the opinion that I should use good dies that pushed on the bullet where the ogive would contact the lands. I offered observations based on examining my dies which demonstrated that isn't practically possible with any commercially available dies I've seen. So you backed off and in the quote near the beginning of this post basically agreed that doing what you said I "should" do wasn't possible but then offered a second opinion that it wouldn't matter because if I used good bullets and good dies I "should" get no more than 0.001" extreme spread in base to ogive dimension. That second opinion doesn't stand the test of measured data either. Most folks are probably loading their ammo pretty much like I loaded the cartridges I measured for this post. The other box of .30-06 ammo loaded at the same time yielded this group in my .30-06 on shots 4, 5, and 6 after using 3 rounds to get the scope adjusted. [IMG]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b336/frwillia/-06zerowith150gSST59p9gH4350WLRM-1-Anal-GP2.jpg[/IMG] That's good enough. I didn't measure the base to ogive distance on those three rounds, but they would be expected to be close to the 20 rounds measured because the bullets are from the same box and they were assembled at the same time. Fitch [/QUOTE]
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