What ever happened to Western count on Whitetails?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Pat S., Dec 27, 2005.

  1. Pat S.

    Pat S. Well-Known Member

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    My nephew got a nice whitetail this year in Idaho and brought it by to show me the rack which he called a 5 point. I pointed out to him that what he had was a very nice 4 point western count as the eye guards/brow tines are not counted in a true western count. I even pointed out a passage in a book by Jack O'Connor that pointed out the difference between Eastern and Western count but he still didn't buy it. Also, he didn't have a clue as to who Jack O'Connor was either.

    Then out of curiousity I polled some hunters here where I work(also in Idaho) and again each was wrong in his tally and wanted to halve the Eastern count. Where was the understanding of Western count lost? Is it a case of "Buckmaster syndrome"?
    Pat S.
     
  2. Ballistic64

    Ballistic64 Well-Known Member

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    Still alive and well here. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
     

  3. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    Why would you want to cheat the deer if it has browtines? I've never understood the western count. Why not just say "10 point?"
     
  4. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Pat S.

    I think it all depends on how you were raised counting points. Personally, being from Montana, I would say 90% of the whitetail hunters up here count all the points on one side including the eyeguards so counting the eyeguards that buck would be a 5x5 up here.

    With whitetails, the eyeguards are often a very substantial part of the overall trophy quality of a buck. You can easily gain 15" of score on eye guards alone.

    As such, why would you not count anything that would contribute to such a degree to the trophy quality of the animal.

    If we were talking mule deer I could understand as eyeguards are generally insignificant on mule deer. A huge set of eye guards on a muly will be about 2 to 3" in lenght. This is nothing for a quality whitetail which will generally push 7-8 inches and often up to 10" in length.

    Just another side note and not meaning this in any disrespectful way, but just because a gunwriter says something does not mean its written in stone, or even correct for that matter /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.

    Everyone has their way of doing things, to say one way is the correct way and all others is wrong is a pretty bold statement in my book.

    Again, its just what people grow up using and what they are used to.

    Personally, if a tine is a scorable tine(+1" on the B&amp;C system), I count it in my count as do most Montana hunters in my area of central Montana.

    Good Shooting!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  5. 4ked Horn

    4ked Horn Writers Guild

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    Wouldn't the deer in question be a 25 point Eastern count? 5x5=25 right? [​IMG]
    And if not exactly symetric i.e. both sides don't score within an eighth of an inch of each other, it would be considered nontypical.

    (jab) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  6. screech

    screech Well-Known Member

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    I've never heard of the eye guards on a white tail not being counted. Mule deer I've always counted western style I guess with just counting forks and fliers. Unless its a big non typical then they are normally counted with everyone I hunt with in centrall Idaho.
     
  7. LB

    LB Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, those two point whitetails make a real impressive mount. Especially the Texas variety, kicks sand on a (two) spike mulie. Personally, they can kill them all off and give the range back to our mule deer, if I had a choice. Let's put an end to whitetail polution.

    Western count rules!

    Good hunting. LB
     
  8. Hired Gun

    Hired Gun Well-Known Member

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    Around here in Oregon a nice Black Tail or a Mule deer would be just called a 4 point with nice eyeguards if it had four points on each side. I once shot a neat looking 2x4 with small eyeguards. Eastern count that would have been an 8 point. No way I'd show a picture of an 8 point like that for show. We count out elk the same way. A really nice one would be a 7x7 or a 7x8.
     
  9. 4ked Horn

    4ked Horn Writers Guild

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Personally, they can kill them all off and give the range back to our mule deer,

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Agreed. Idaho is losing way to whitetails and wolves. I say we should save the mulies and elk instead.
     
  10. jameslovesjammie

    jameslovesjammie Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Kirby 100%!

    (We Montanans have to stick together!)
     
  11. Pat S.

    Pat S. Well-Known Member

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    "I think it all depends on how you were raised counting points."


    You may be right Kirby. Here where I live in Central Idaho the traditional western count was always used up until recently.

    "With whitetails, the eyeguards are often a very substantial part of the overall trophy quality of a buck. You can easily gain 15" of score on eye guards alone.

    As such, why would you not count anything that would contribute to such a degree to the trophy quality of the animal."


    I don't think western count was ever considered to be a way to judge a trophy animal, merely a technique for indentification. Four point and five point deer, as has been noted, come in all sizes. B+C, P+A, or Buckmasters are a better means of scoring an animal.



    "Just another side note and not meaning this in any disrespectful way, but just because a gunwriter says something does not mean its written in stone, or even correct for that matter /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif."


    None taken. But it wasn't just Jack O'Connor who used tradition western count in the past for identification. When I was young the literature I read and the pictures that accompanied it used a traditional western count also. Also, over the years I've run into people who have met, read, and liked or disliked Jack but haven't met anyone who said he wasn't knowledgable and didn't know what he was talking about.;)

    "Everyone has their way of doing things, to say one way is the correct way and all others is wrong is a pretty bold statement in my book.
    Again, its just what people grow up using and what they are used to."


    I'll agree with that. One of my co-workers stated that his uncle goes by traditional western count and his father by the 1/2 eastern method. My contention is that one of these methods is the "true/historic" traditional western count and the other is what it has evolved into for many over the years. Does that make either system wrong or bad---no, just ambiguous.


    "Personally, if a tine is a scorable tine(+1" on the B&amp;C system), I count it in my count as do most Montana hunters in my area of central Montana."


    Perhaps we can call it "Central Montana count" to eliminate the ambiguity?:)

    Pat S.
     
  12. duckinalaska

    duckinalaska Well-Known Member

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    Hey guys,
    I thought all of us rednecks said, " If you can hang a rang on it, you count it."
    Brandon