What can I do to this gun to make it stretch out ?

Discussion in 'Muzzleloader Hunting' started by Stainless, Jun 24, 2007.

  1. Stainless

    Stainless Member

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    Without getting too deep in the wallet /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    I have a CVA optima elite 50cal. It's inline, 209 primer, break action, and capable of magnum charges (CVA says 150 grains of pellets) in a 26" factory barrel. The twist is 1 in 28". It is stainless, of course, and has a thumbhole stock. Nothing is custom, this thing is as factory as it gets.

    I want to get as much lethal range as possible with this gun on Midwestern deer.

    I've been using 295gr Powerbelt bullets and 150gr Triple 7 pellets.

    What can I do to this gun to make it stretch out without getting too deep in the wallet? And when complete, what will the lethal range be?

    Stainless Man
     
  2. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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  3. timl

    timl Well-Known Member

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    If you can use optics where you hunt, buy a good scope. Get one with target knobs or some type of reticle with different marks on it. Figure out your bullet drop at different ranges, then practice a lot. I'm comfortable out to 200 yds with my Encore.
     
  4. Stainless

    Stainless Member

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    I just put on a nikon omega muzzlelaoder scope a few days ago. Not sighted it in yet but I've heard good things about the ease of use and the eye relief. It has the bdc reticle and finger adjustable windage and elavation knobs so I can dial or use the reticle or both.

    I also talked to a guy at PR bullets (Thanks for the suggestion Bounty Hunter). He says 300yds is reasonable but I could tell his insurance doesn't allow him to say much more. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    A hunting buddy (the most dangerous creature on Earth)/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif at my local shop tells me to go with the PR bullet and 150gr of FFFg loose powder. Says he got about 2250fps with this load last year.

    I'm going to give it all a try. Its a good excuse to go to the range. Besides, I need something to shoot while I wait on the 300 win mag to cool.
     
  5. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    PR normally recommends 777 so I would have some of that on had too.

    BH
     
  6. WSmitty01

    WSmitty01 Well-Known Member

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    Use loose 777 for better ignition!
     
  7. ATH

    ATH Well-Known Member

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    If the 195gr Duplex Dead Center will shoot in your gun, go with that. If not, try the heavier .40cal DC bullets. The only problem with these bullets is that they have no jacket....I have tried in multiple guns to push them fast and without exception groups open up at between 1800 and 2000 fps. My Omega will not shoot them period.

    If they won't work, go with the .40 cal 200gr Shockwave. Short of the .357 DC it's the flattest shooting bullet I've seen. I shoot it over 110gr FFg 777 in my Omega.

    The scope will be vital. I could not afford a tactical scope for a ML when I set up my long range open field gun so I got a Leatherwood ML scope that adjusts to range by dialing the back of the scope up on a cam. It took 200 rounds to get the scope set up well, but now I can "dial up" out to 350 yards. A little extra hold-over and the gun has proven accurate to 400 yds. So far my longest kill has been 272 yards, hit within 2 inches of my intended point of impact and dropped her on the spot.

    Break-opens can be hard to accurize...I agree PR is a good place to look for help with that.
     
  8. Stainless

    Stainless Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    If the 195gr Duplex Dead Center will shoot in your gun, go with that.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Got them on the way. Everybody I've talked to say this is the way to go. Even the guys that don't sell them.


    [ QUOTE ]
    The scope will be vital.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    I've just put on a Nikon Omega BDC-250. The glass is good and it has finger adjustable elevation and windage knobs. The 5" of eye relief is nice.


    [ QUOTE ]
    Break-opens can be hard to accurize.

    [/ QUOTE ]
    Now the real question. What can be done to accurize a break open muzzleloader?


    Any smiths out there care to weigh-in?
     
  9. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    IMO, heavy and slow for pure lead bullets, but that is an argument in waiting /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    If you want to stretch out, then forget light loads. Find a high BC bullet and try a whole bunch of sabots. You may end up buying a bullet/sabot and throwing that sabot away because another one is more consistent.

    Since it is the first shot that counts, I would swab between EVERY shot. After you find your best load, then figure out where the second shot goes on a dirty barrel.

    MMP makes three sabots for the 50 caliber with a .452 bullet and another for a .458 bullet.
    Harvester makes three if I recall, including a crush rib for easy loading.

    I have not seen good performance with powerbelts on NJ deer and they do not compare to Mid-Western big boys /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

    Cabelas sells the equivalent of the Barnes TMZ ( all copper ), under the KNIGHT products, in 250 and 290 grain versions. These are $17 / 30 bullets but since they are a boat tail design you can't easily swap out the sabot. BC should be around .210 and .250

    300 grain Barnes Original semi-spitzer has a good reputation, but are expensive and sometimes hard to find. IMO the BC is hyped a little too much /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    edge.
     
  10. NYLES

    NYLES Well-Known Member

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    Ive been a lil lazy in here lately but.....

    777 loose....no dought!

    Barnes TMZ!....290 gr...nothin else!

    I may sound opionated...but Ive been at it long enough I can be!....everything listed above except the ML scope Ive used...the ticket is loose 777 and barnes TMZ!
     
  11. Stainless

    Stainless Member

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    Nyles,

    How many grains of 777? Also, can you give the results you achieved with this load such as velocity, energy and max effective lethal range?

    Thanks for the help.
     
  12. NYLES

    NYLES Well-Known Member

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    FRom Dads Encore
    Load Data
    ~~~~~~~~~

    Name: .45 Cal, Barnes TMZ, 290 grn
    Ballistic Coeff: 0.241
    Bullet Weight: 290
    Velocity: 2061
    Target Distance: 141
    Scope Height: 1.500
    Temperature: 80
    Altitude: 300

    Ballistic Data
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
    0 yds -1.50 in 2061 fps 2735 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in -0.00 in
    25 yds 0.18 in 1985 fps 2537 fpe 0.037 sec 0.26 in -0.53 in 0.13 in
    50 yds 1.33 in 1910 fps 2349 fpe 0.075 sec 1.06 in -0.33 in 0.39 in
    75 yds 1.87 in 1837 fps 2174 fpe 0.115 sec 2.46 in 0.04 in 1.03 in
    100 yds 1.75 in 1767 fps 2011 fpe 0.157 sec 4.52 in 0.60 in 2.00 in
    125 yds 0.92 in 1699 fps 1859 fpe 0.201 sec 7.29 in 1.36 in 3.29 in
    150 yds -0.66 in 1633 fps 1717 fpe 0.246 sec 10.82 in 2.34 in 4.86 in
    175 yds -3.03 in 1569 fps 1585 fpe 0.293 sec 15.13 in 3.56 in 6.69 in
    200 yds -6.21 in 1506 fps 1461 fpe 0.341 sec 20.26 in 5.05 in 8.76 in
    225 yds -10.41 in 1447 fps 1348 fpe 0.392 sec 26.41 in 6.86 in 11.29 in
    250 yds -15.68 in 1391 fps 1245 fpe 0.445 sec 33.62 in 9.01 in 14.21 in
    275 yds -22.11 in 1338 fps 1153 fpe 0.500 sec 42.00 in 11.55 in 17.54 in
    300 yds -29.73 in 1288 fps 1068 fpe 0.557 sec 51.55 in 14.48 in 21.20 in
    325 yds -38.61 in 1241 fps 992 fpe 0.616 sec 62.37 in 17.86 in 25.20 in
    350 yds -48.96 in 1198 fps 925 fpe 0.678 sec 74.67 in 21.73 in 29.62 in
    375 yds -60.84 in 1160 fps 866 fpe 0.741 sec 88.50 in 26.12 in 34.42 in
    400 yds -74.34 in 1124 fps 814 fpe 0.807 sec 103.94 in 31.06 in 39.57 in
    425 yds -89.56 in 1093 fps 769 fpe 0.875 sec 121.11 in 36.59 in 45.08 in
    450 yds -106.63 in 1065 fps 731 fpe 0.944 sec 140.11 in 42.74 in 50.91 in
    475 yds -125.54 in 1040 fps 697 fpe 1.016 sec 160.97 in 49.52 in 57.04 in
    500 yds -146.44 in 1017 fps 666 fpe 1.088 sec 183.81 in 56.98 in 63.48 in
    525 yds -169.35 in 997 fps 640 fpe 1.163 sec 208.66 in 65.14 in 70.19 in
    550 yds -194.20 in 977 fps 615 fpe 1.239 sec 235.46 in 73.97 in 77.10 in
    575 yds -221.35 in 960 fps 593 fpe 1.316 sec 264.56 in 83.60 in 84.35 in
    600 yds -250.78 in 943 fps 573 fpe 1.395 sec 295.93 in 94.02 in 91.87 in
    625 yds -282.44 in 927 fps 554 fpe 1.476 sec 329.53 in 105.24 in 99.61 in
    650 yds -316.32 in 912 fps 536 fpe 1.557 sec 365.36 in 117.24 in 107.54 in
    675 yds -352.70 in 898 fps 519 fpe 1.640 sec 403.68 in 130.14 in 115.74 in
    700 yds -391.23 in 884 fps 504 fpe 1.724 sec 444.16 in 143.81 in 124.06 in
    725 yds -432.50 in 871 fps 489 fpe 1.809 sec 487.36 in 158.47 in 132.67 in
    750 yds -476.49 in 859 fps 475 fpe 1.896 sec 533.30 in 174.10 in 141.55 in
    775 yds -523.22 in 847 fps 461 fpe 1.984 sec 581.97 in 190.73 in 150.67 in
    800 yds -572.68 in 835 fps 449 fpe 2.074 sec 633.38 in 208.37 in 160.00 in
     
  13. NYLES

    NYLES Well-Known Member

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    Dec 18, 2006
    That is with 3 pellets for 150 grains I shoot 120 grs loose and results are so close that I use his sheet.

    IMHO....loose 777 is cheaper...and I dont experience that crazy flyer...a cap is enough to move a bullet in the barrel before total ignition...changing the bullets starting point in the barrel....I believe those holes through the pellets cause this.

    Dad sold his Optima for the Encore but after many debates we believe his bullet explosion was caused by the Powerbelts...being too soft for the velocities. So no problems with the optima(just heavy as hell!)

    We still carry a few Powerbelts in quick loaders in case we do in fact need a second shot...TMZ's do not load easily. But look at my other blackpowdwer posts and you will see what they are capable of.

    I sight in at 1" high at 75 yards for a 150 zero(real close anyway), I have shot over deer at 75 yards running from a treestand so this allows me to keep a dead on hold. It all depends on the average range you usually have your shots. Ours average 50-75 yards...on shots longer than 150 we are usually in shooting houses in fileds and have plenty of time to adjust for 200-225. At 250 hold on his spine itll drop right in his vitals. After that your gussing unless youve praticed the shot.

    I have killed deer close enough to leave powder burns on the exit side(he was close enough I couldnt shoulder the gun) but all and all a 150 yard zero will cover 99% of my shots but do in fact shoot that 200 yrd mark itll make you better in the end and 6 inches of drop is not hard to deal with, it will keep your hold on hair to round 250.

    Last edit GET ALL THE SCOPE YOU CAN STAND!
     
  14. Ridge Runner

    Ridge Runner Well-Known Member

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    This buck was taken at 208 yards (lazered) I took one a previous year at 165, then the next year I helplessly watched a realy nice 10 point at 240 yds and could do nothing.
    On the way home I was thinking there was something I could do, so when I got home I put a burris 3x9 with bp on the thunderhawk, and started shooting a higher bc saboted bullet, with 150 gr of powder.
    started shooting it and became very comfortable with it out to 250+ yards.
    the last day of wv season that year this buck was in a small clearing at 208 yds, put the horizontal wire on top his back, lined the vertical wire up with the offside shoulder, he never moved after the gun went off, just flipped over feet in the air.
    [​IMG]
    RR

    Now my opinion, ditch the powerbelts, get a good high velocity sabot load (TC shockwaves are good as any with a BC of .210) work on your loading technique to keep everything as consistant as possible, shoot alot and develope confidance in it.
    I shoot 3 pyro (not 777) pellets behind a shockwave sabot and get really good groups with them (around 1.5" at 100) a BDC reticle will help figure your hold I know a few guys who shoot 2 50 gr and 2 30 grain pellets from they're rifles, but doesn't seem to be much difference. keep working with it till you find a load it likes and practice, practice, practise.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2007