VLD question

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Caleb85, Mar 10, 2014.

  1. Caleb85

    Caleb85 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    695
    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2013
    Im shootin my 7mm rem mag sendero with 168gr. VLD and 63gr. Of H1000 and its putting two rounds in the same hole and one off about an inch!! What is should I do next on the next three rounds I reload?
     
  2. brd922001

    brd922001 Active Member

    Messages:
    27
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Try different powder. I've seen that before and powder change helped.
     

  3. brd922001

    brd922001 Active Member

    Messages:
    27
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    one more thing to try. Might back off the load some. I've also seen this on too much charge load.
     
  4. 300rum

    300rum Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    564
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2006
    Seems you bullet is not touching the land consistent.

    If you are loading them very close to the land - due to variation on bullet lenght some of the "FLYERS" are touching the land -
    Back of from land.

    Or if you load them jammed in land 10-15 thou - if you have one shorter you will have the FLYER

    Advised.... reload 63gr and play with seating depth in increment of 5 thou.
    see where the group is tightening and reload to confirm the group
    If you see the group opens - go in opposite direction with seating depth.

    BERGER VLD - ARE VERY SENSITIVE TO SEATING DEPTH. THEY LOVE TO BE JAMMED IN LAND BETWEEN 10-20 THOU.

    All my loads for VLD are jammed in land 10-15 thou. THEY SHOOT AWESOME (0.25 MOA - or 3/8 MOA )
     
  5. vahena

    vahena Active Member

    Messages:
    43
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2014
    Hi everyone,
    I am new to reloading and was wondering what you mean by jammed in land? Are you saying to be in the lands10-15 thou. I thought you needed to be around a few thou off the lands.
    Any help would be appreciated.
     
  6. 300rum

    300rum Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    564
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2006
    Yes...
    Jammed in land - bullet is way deeper in barrel
    Off Land - bullet is far away from the barrel

    "I thought you needed to be around a few thou off the lands"

    Yes and NO.
    Every bullet performs different. Some bullets likes to be "In Land" other "Away from Land" Seated

    example:
    SMK - shoots awesome - OFF THE LAND (0.20-0.50 thou off the land)
    BERGER VLD or BERGER OTM - shoot amazing tight groups Jammed in land (0.10-0.15 thou in land)

    Are few reports on this site - some are loading the Berger VLD / OTM Hybrid - far away from the land with good result (0.20-0.30-0.50 thou off the land) and they are happy with.

    Main thumb rule is - BERGER - in Land (do not get more then 0.20 thou in land - stay between 0-10-0.20 thou)
    SMK - off land (way far away from land)

    It is very important - how you figured out where the bullet touching the land.
    Option A - (old class)
    take a clean case (unprimed)
    get a bullet (make sure you sort them by length from tip to bottom)
    -IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE 2-3 DUMMY BULLETS THE SAME LENGTH (due to length variation)
    - seat the bullet far away (COAL to be very long)
    - get a marker or a lighter and smoke the bullet on the ogive area
    - slowly insert the bullet on chamber and slowly try to close the bolt
    - if you get resistance on closing the bold back off and extract the bullet
    - see the rifling marks on the bullet
    - seat the die to push the bullet deeper on case
    - make sure you seat the bullet in small steps
    -re- smoke the bullet on ogive area
    - chamber the bullet
    - see the marks on bullets
    - you have to repeat the above untill you will get just " a tinny hair marks on bullet) with the BOLT CLOSED
    - THAT IS 0.3 THOU ON LAND
    FROM HERE YOU CAN GO OTHER WAY - INLAND OR OFF LAND

    Remember about the sorting of 2 or 3 bullets the same length? Here comes handy why....
    Reload another dummy with the same bullet length (the previous one have marks on him from the rifling and can get your dies - wrong readings)

    Option B

    go and by from Sinclair "bullet seating depth tool" around 40-80 US
    and follow the instructions on the case.

    both options works.
     
  7. vahena

    vahena Active Member

    Messages:
    43
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2014
    300rum
    Thank you for explaining jammed land. I am reading all that I can about reloading books internet etc, but It seems to me that the books, play it very safe in almost all respects. Don't get me wrong, I am all about safety, but I can see that long time reloaders inch their way with bullit depth and powder grains increase. I guess to sum everything up these long time loaders know what they are doing thru experience. Is that about right?
    Thanks
     
  8. 300rum

    300rum Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    564
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2006
    Dear Vahena

    It's good to be safe. And never ever cut corners on reloading.

    Yes all the books or internet powder chart are using very very safe loads.
    Lets make it CLEAR...

    First when you choose the powder you have to look for the EXTRUDED EXTREME POWDER (is the less sensitive to temperature variation)

    For your 7rm you chose the best powder H1000 (0.21 fps per degree)
    that is mean from 10F to 52F your bullet speed load is almost the same (up to 1200 yards)
    In other words your summer load will stay the same in winter without speed variation.
    Other good powder is RETUMBO

    So if you go to Hodgen Reloading Powder website you will find the following


    69.0 starting load
    2,744 starting speed

    71.0 max load
    2,806 max speed

    Now all this are way off. The load is made at sea level, with 24in barrel and bullet seated away from the land

    The data is helping you to get the starting point charge.

    1. You have to find the maximum charge on your rifle
    2. back off one grain
    3. fine tune the load (with seating depth)

    To do that you have to do the following
    1. find where is your land and go 10 thou in land with bullet
    2. reload in increment of 0.5gr from 69 to 72gr (69, 69.5, 70, 70.5, 71, etc)
    3. reload just one round for each increment
    4. go at 200-300 yards and aiming at the same point shoot every round STARTING FROM 69 - and go up to 72
    5. PAY ATTENTION TO FIRST SIGN OF PRESSURE (hard lifting the bold, hard extraction of the brass out of chamber, primer flattened) and STOP RIGHT THERE.
    6. lets say you got the first pressure signs at 71.5, then back off one grain at 70.5)
    7. 71.5 IS YOUR MAXIMUM CHARGE - FOR YOUR RIFLE (not your buddy rifle or the rifle of powder company)
    8. ALWAYS AND ALWAYS YOU HAVE TO FIND WHAT IS YOUR MAX POWDER CHARGE FOR YOUR RIFLE
    9. go home and reload 70.5 - 5 rounds
    10. test the group
    11. for fine tuning - keep everything the same and just play with seating depth in increment of 3 thou. until your group is tight enough for your application.
    12. mark the load on the book and that is your load for using 168VLD with H1000
    14. it is very important to redo the above if your batch of powder is different. Keep in mind you can get big variation on pressure just having different batch of powder.

    If you look on the 1 lb bottle you will find the #0000 number (this is the batch number)

    Make sure all are the same.
    If you have different numbers (just mix all the batches together ) to uniform them and then do the load testing.

    YOU CAN INJURE YOURSELF... if you don't follow the above.

    Safety first. As you noticed you are loading with 1-2 gr more then the book advised. Don;t worry. At first sign of pressure stop and back off one grain...
     
  9. 300rum

    300rum Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    564
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2006
    My load for 7rm with 168VLD is 70.5gr of H1000, rem case and CCI 250M primers
    I'm at 3000fps and the load is way from maximum...

    I'm loading the 190VLD MAtrix with RamShot Magnum, rem case, cci250M at 2840fps.

    but for all the above i did the same load development mentioned on earlier post.

    Hope I give you a good advised and PLEASE DON'T CUT CORNERS. you will injured yourself or worse.

    Load safe-stay alive-and enjoy shooting.
     
  10. FearNoWind

    FearNoWind Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,314
    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2012
    If you're new to reloading, keep this in mind.
    IMO, the worst place for anyone with a beginning interest in reloading to get load information is from an internet forum.
    If you want load information, consult your factory reloading manual and start from there.
    You may find, after you have some experience, that you can use SOME of the information you collect from various forums - but it's not the place to start. Once you fully understand what's happening with your loads and how your rifle responds to X grains of X powder, X bullet seating depth, X primer and X ambient temperature with hot/cold barrel (head space and case length being constant) you will be better prepared to move toward some of the advance reloading practices.
    It is not common for two rifles to respond the same way to the same load. Forcing bullets into the lands works fine for some rifles with some loads; but it is not a standard practice that works well with every rifle/load combination. My 6BR and my .284 do not like loads with an OAL that extends into the lands. They shoot bug holes with a bit of a jump. The further into the lands you load the bullet the higher the chamber pressures will go and (in many rifles) those pressures can reach dangerous levels very quickly.
    Be safe - move slow and understand the consequences before you pull the trigger on a well planned hand grenade.
     
  11. vahena

    vahena Active Member

    Messages:
    43
    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2014
    300rum

    Thanks again, I understand, go slow and watch for pressure signs on the casing. This thread has help me to understand the rules of reloading and the limitation and the safety procedures.
    Thanks again 300rum
     
  12. 300rum

    300rum Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    564
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2006
    fearnowind

    yes you are right about a beginers steps onreloading . .
    ifrom wjat i understood he got some level on reloading or at least the basics .

    i never sugest his one load or another i told him to go straigjt at hodgon websitd on reloading section
    they have interactive website to get the starting and max load for differend powders and bullets.
    az you mentioned .... never trust somebody else load ... every rifle is different ... always start from min load and work up
     
  13. 300rum

    300rum Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    564
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2006

    welcome. if this is first time reloading.... please dont do it alone. make sure you have one advanced reloader guy who can supervise all the steps what are you willing to do.
     
  14. 300rum

    300rum Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    564
    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2006
    very well pointed out.
    now even with reloading manuals he has to be carefull. on older editions with older batch of h1000 the max load is safe.
    but with new hotter batch from hogdon 2013 may be to hot for the same load.
    that is the reason why i sent him straight to theyr website... the loads are updated regularly.

    hope this helps to understand more about powder batches and variation from batch to batch.