vihtavuori n500 series powders

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by ricka0, Jul 23, 2005.

  1. ricka0

    ricka0 Well-Known Member

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    Contrary to the writings of a quack, the holy grail of powder burning is a flat pressure curve. The vihtavuori n500 series is advertised to do just that and produce 150 fps higher velocity than conventional propellants.
    Generally speaking, a flat pressure curve would result in greater throat wear, as max pressure + temp occurs for a longer period. According to the vihtavuori adverts, this factor is mitigated by [ QUOTE ]
    <font color="purple"> Although these new powders have a higher energy content, they do not cause greater wear to the gun. This is because the surface of the powder has been treated with an agent designed to reduce barrel wear. </font>

    [/ QUOTE ]
    The N500 series powders cost more for 2 lbs than WC872 in 8 lbs jugs. If I could really get an additional 150 fps with no greater wear, it would be a bargain.
    comments? Any experience?
     
  2. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    Run Forrest, run!
    N550 did give me good velo, about 150 fps more than an equivalent charge of w760, but it fried my three groove Pac-Nor in about 900 rounds! That gun was in a caliber that should have easily made it to 2000 rounds before being set back a thread and rechambered.

    I have read VV's disclaimer before and their deterrent coating garbage is a load of marketing bullpucky. 5 series made the first 3 inches of my throat look like a dry lake bed when viewed through my gunsmith's Hawkeye.

    I might also mention that this barrel was properly broke in, was cleaned rigorously every 30-50 rounds, and all 900 bullets shot through it were moly-coated to help reduce barrel wear (if you believe in that sort of thing).

    Since my experience with the nasty 550, I have talked to many long range varmint hunters via email and they all have had similiar experiences. I would stay 100 miles away from the closest bottle of any 5 series VV powder. As I have said before, VV 1 series are some of my most favorite powders and VV 5 series are my least favorite!

    Hope this helps.
     

  3. 7Rumloader

    7Rumloader Well-Known Member

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    b1g b0re, GG I have no personal experience with the 500 series powders but have read and heard the same thing GG posted. They are hard on barrels!
     
  4. James Jones

    James Jones Well-Known Member

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    I shoot it in one of my 308's exclusivly with 175gr SMK bullets. This barrel is a Rem heavy varmint conture by Hart its finished at 25" the velocitys I get with this load are above what i have ever experianced 2760fps with a load of 47grs of VV-550. I have over 1000 rounds with this powder in this gun and have seen no affects on accuracy at all , the gun cleans just as well as it ever did and doesen't seem to feel and rougher. Another note this powder doesen't seem to be temp sensitive as O worked this load up in 50 deg temps and shoot it now in the mid 90's with no noticable signs of pressure increase.

    So far I love it , doesen't foul bad gives more speed.

    NOW , I haven't looked at the bore with a scope so it could be cooked but unless the accuracy falls off soo , I don't have a problem with it.
     
  5. brianwinzor

    brianwinzor Well-Known Member

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    GoodGrouper, Interesting to hear about the abrasiveness of N550 in your rifle, and that others have experienced similar problems. I have only fired about 100 shots with this powder during accuracy testing and chronographing in my .17/222 mag imp with the 25 and 30 grain bullets, so am unable to determine whether it did cause any significant erosion on the throat of my barrel. Velocity wise, it appears to give up to 100 fps more than W760 and H414, however, I noticed that accuracy was ordinary while working up to maximum pressure, then suddenly at maximum pressure the group size reduced dramatically.

    I have used N560 in a variety of cases including .17/222mag imp, 224 Clark, 22/250AI, 25/06AI, and in no instance has it delivered highest velocity or best accuracy. I found that like N550 good accuracy was only achieved at maximum pressure, which certainly restricts its usefullness.

    So far I have found that N165 to be an excellent powder with the heavier bullets, and have just started testing N170 in the 25/06 AI with the 130 and 142 grain Wildcat bullets.

    Despite the cost of about $105 Australian, I would probably buy more N165 and N170, but am most unlikely to buy anymore of the N500 series powders.
     
  6. nowler

    nowler Well-Known Member

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    are you still able to buy vit 170? we can no longer get it here in the uk and i was led to believe that they have stopped making it?
     
  7. brianwinzor

    brianwinzor Well-Known Member

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    Nowler, I purchased my current lots of N170 last year after contacting the Australian Agents, and then having it delivered to a local retail outlet.

    I just checked the www.Vihtavouri.fi website and N170 is still mentioned on their powder list, so hopefully it is still being manufactured.
    Brian.
     
  8. joe boyd

    joe boyd Active Member

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    goodgrouper,
    Would you mind telling us what the caliber of the gun was that only got 900 rounds ? I believe what you say, coppermelt makes me believe everything that you say. My problem is, I am breaking in a 40X .308 prone gun with the factory 40X barrel, and it shooting 3 shot groups in the .250 range at 200 yds still cleaning every 3rd rd. I guess I'm hoping that a .308 is immune.
    thank you
    joe
     
  9. goodgrouper

    goodgrouper Well-Known Member

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    It was on a 22-250 ackley improved essentially, however, there were modifications made to it so I sometimes refer to it here as the 22 BJB.

    I have another one of these calibers in a fast twist which shoots h4831sc and has over 2200 round through it now and is still going!
     
  10. joe boyd

    joe boyd Active Member

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    goodgrouper,
    thank you for your reply, I hope you realize my yard is going to get two pounds of fertilizer at $20.00 per pound.
    Joe
     
  11. ricka0

    ricka0 Well-Known Member

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    goodgrouper - Awesome info (as normal for you). What you report is also consistent with the physics - a flatter pressure curve means more time at peak temp (which implies peak pressure) - therefore you get much accelerated barrel/throat wear. It's heat the moves the bullet, your not firing an alka-seltzer gun /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    BTW, my propellant chemist pal leaked the engineering memo that marketing started with [ QUOTE ]
    <font color="purple"> Although these new powders have a higher energy content, they do not cause <font color="red"> [4 times ] </font> greater wear to the gun <font color="red"> [They only cause 2.2 times greater wear ] </font> . This is because the surface of the powder has been treated with an agent designed to reduce barrel wear.[/b] </font>

    [/ QUOTE ]
    So it's not all marketing after all - it's only 220% marketing:)
    Now with a .308, you might get accelerated wear, but now your talking the barrel going from 6,000+ cycles to 2,000. It might be worth in in a 30-06 Short Mag (my name for the .308) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    I think I'll start using it in some of my factory barrel guns that still shoot good (for factory barrels) (that I need an excuse to rechamber/rebarrel) /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
     
  12. rost495

    rost495 Well-Known Member

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    I've fired more pounds of 540 and some of 550 that I can recall. But only in 223 AR15 rifles. FWIW in the 223 caliber the barrel life has been appx the same as with any other powders I"ve used. Good cut barrels run around 5k, buttoned aroun 3500 for top accuracy. (mind you I'm pretty picky)

    On larger cases vs bore diameter I cannot comment. I can add that it does add velocity and add enough without excess pressure to allow a visible advantage in the matches I shoot it such that the cost is well worth it for me. Our cost down here was always around 20-23 bucks a pound and thats not much more than standard powder costs. I don't think its fair to compare its cost to surplus powders, since they are even less than standard. IE I bought some surplus some years back in 200 pound containers for 2 dollars a pound. Thats not a fair comparison.

    Jeff
     
  13. ricka0

    ricka0 Well-Known Member

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    I just got 4lbs in the mail today. ( N 560 ser#'s 1205 &amp; 1206 - batch 29.12.2003) I'm going to test it in 3/4 MOA factory A-bolt 270 WSM and my 300 RUM Sendero - I'm hoping to burn out the barrels so I can get new Lilja's installed /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
    At $20/lb, it's more expensive than my old favorite, IMR 4350

    I'm thinking I may be able to set some sorta record using it in a 7mm Allen Uber Mag.
     
  14. kidcoltoutlaw

    kidcoltoutlaw Well-Known Member

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    Anybody have any luck getting VV 500 series to burn there barrels out ? How about N560 ?

    Thanks,Keith