Very first ladder test, take a look.

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by grit, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. grit

    grit Well-Known Member

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    I haven't figured out how to put a pic on here, so bear with me while I explain results.

    270 win, RL-19, 140 sst, 325 yards, 55 degrees

    Charges: 1-17= 52.6 - 57.4 in .3 increments.
    Started with three foulers and one sighter.

    shot 1 & 2 same elevation, 3 inches wide
    3,4,5 same elevation (up 2 inches from 2), 7/8" group!
    6, up two inches from 5
    7&8 same elevation, up two inches, 3 inches wide
    9 up 1.5"
    10 up 1"
    11 up 1"
    12 up 3/4"
    13 down 1.5"
    14 up 2.75", left 2"
    15 down 1.75"
    16 up 1.25"
    17 up 2,5"

    14's kind of the wild card.

    I know this is not much to go on. I'd like to hear what you think anyways. If this was all the info you had, which charge would you use?

    Where would you test next? A ladder using groups for poi, test between 3,4,5, test between 13-16?

    I don't have a chrony yet.
     
  2. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

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    Grit, if you can email me a pic, ill post it for you. Looking at the target will tell the tell very quickly. Not having a chrony is a detriment, but you will still a lot of info to go on. Lets see if we can find the nodes, then you will need to load a few more with a charge weight in the middle of them... then play with seating depth if you like.
     

  3. grit

    grit Well-Known Member

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    Ok abinok,
    I sent a drawing first, as I had to install my camera software. I got the software installed, and just sent the pic. If I didn't shave, I could grow a beard in the time it takes my conmputer to upload a picture!
     
  4. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

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    [​IMG]
     
  5. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

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    On initial impression, id load a few rounds with the charge wt used on #4, and a few between #11 and #16, banking on the idea that perhaps something strange was at work with #14. Id load a few at #12, and some at #15.
    Having a chronograph would make it an easier process for sure, but it can be done without.
    Id pick your loads to test, and load 6 rounds of each, then shoot at a pair of targets. After shooting, look at them individually, then stacked, so you have a pair of 3 shot targets, and a 6 shot target to look at. With the load that performs best of those, load 9, and repeat. You end with 3, 3shot groups, 2, 6 shot groups, and a 9 shot group to analyze the load with, while putting very few rounds downrange. Naturally, 3 shot groups will be smallest, with 6 usually bigger, and 9 the biggest, but if your 9 shot group is round, and small, you will be pretty happy with it.
     
  6. grit

    grit Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for your help! What range would you do the accuracy testing at?
    I think I managed to pull 14. I'm guessing further, it should've hit next to 12. This gives about 1.75" for shots 11-15. What's with the waves?
    I don't think I mentioned in initial post, there was a light, gusty breeze blowing from about two o clock. This breeze died out around shot 10. I didn't expect a vertical string, but I think the wind is responsible for a lot of the horizontal displacement.

    I'll test the loads tomorrow. This is fun. I've been trying to decide which rifle to buy next. After today, I know; a new spotting scope.
     
  7. 4ked Horn

    4ked Horn Writers Guild

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    Abinok how have you been? I am still a student of this ladder test but I am looking at this and thinking his low node is load #4 which is almost dead center between 2-3 and 6-5. And the high node is a load right between 13 and 14. I roughly plotted the shots on a peak style graph and that load would rest squarely in the center of an up and down series of impacts that are a mirror image of each other as follows:

    10-up-11-up-12-dn-13-up\
    17-dn-16-dn-15-up-14-dn/

    The up and down movements are remarkably similar in size with 10,11,12 being a bit shorter than 17,16,15. Looks like a growth and decay of an obvious harmonic occurance. Viewed like this makes 14 look alot less strange.(totally ignoring windage though)

    But I'm still new at this. If you disagree please give some detail as to why so I can get this figured out.

    Upon reviewing the picture again it seems that a load between 7 and 8 may hit another, more sensitive node centered between 6,7 and 9,8
     
  8. 41mag

    41mag Well-Known Member

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    Looks like your off and running now. Not having a chrono, isn't such a disadvantage as some folks seem to get hung up with velocity issues. Not that the velocity isn't important, but if your staying within the standard listed loads, not seeing pressure signs, and getting good to great groups, what does it matter what the velocity is.

    If you have some sort of ballistic software, you can get pretty close to your velocity doing drop test at various ranges. Either way, you will still know if X-load shot 1" high at 100 and 3"-low at 400, your good to go out to 400 with a dead on hold.

    I had a load I worked up years ago for my mom to shoot in a 270 Win. using a 130gr BT and IMR - 3031. the velocity was only about 2700 - 2750, but the load shot under an inch from bags out to 200yds. I shot pleanty of deer with it out to 400 yds that just dropped like you unplugged them, and the bullet generally did very little meat damage. The recoil was little more than a .243. Mom took several nice deer with it before she finially gave up hunting due to health issues.

    After several years of playing with other loads in that rifle, I find myself looking back at that load more and more.

    Good luck in your new endeavers and remember, velocity is nice, but a tight consistant group is much better in the long run. Once you hit one or two good loads you will know what I mean.
     
  9. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Thanks for your help! What range would you do the accuracy testing at?
    This is fun. I've been trying to decide which rifle to buy next. After today, I know; a new spotting scope.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I hear ya on the spotting scope. That was my very next purchase when I learned that 100yds was too short for a ladder test.

    Not only fun but exciting to see someone getting a good start, you're right on track, my man! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif I wonder how much more fun life would have been had I learned of the ladder test 30 years earlier. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

    You didn't mention which primers you are using....

    If you are using Magnum primers, when you settle on your accurate load try the large rifle primers with it. I realized a large increase in smaller groups w/the standard large rife primers. However I am using RL-22 in the 270 Win. Got to pressure limits before I got the velocity I got to the velocity range I wanted w/RL-19. I was quite suprised that even with the slower powder the standard primer was better all the way around (repeatability and way lower standard deviations). It seems the ol' 270 just doesn't have enough case capacity to warrant use of a magnum primer..... Was told that and tried it after using Magnums for 30+ years./ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

    Keep having fun. You'll go a long ways w/that 270 it looks like it has plenty of accuracy potential.

    I'd do my accuracy test @ 100 cause you're gonna get some bug hole groups and no matter what anyone says, a 1/4 MOA group @ 100 way more exciting than a 1/4 MOA group at 300. Those get stuck on the fridge door for months. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Once ya get a couple of bug holes then do all shooting at 300+ it'll make you a better shooter. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
     
  10. green 788

    green 788 Well-Known Member

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  11. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
     
  12. grit

    grit Well-Known Member

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    optimal charge weight.

    788,
    I read that before doing the test. I shot seventeen charge weights. X 3 would be a hell of a lot of shooting. Not to mention take all day. I agree it would eliminate some questions, such as, "Where's 14 going?". It would also show gouping. The groups should shrink coming into the nodes. Not a bad idea now that I've narrowed the field.

    Roy,
    Thanks for the encouragement. I'm glad to hear somebody else thinks the rifle has the potential. I just bedded it in a Boyds stock. It feels rock solid now.

    I'm using Federal 210's, as this seemed to be the consensus when I did my research to pick parts for the load. Also Remington once fired, cause I have them.
     
  13. royinidaho

    royinidaho Writers Guild

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    Re: optimal charge weight.

    Rem cases are heavier that W-W. Will reach pressures sooner. Also I think W-W brass it a skoshie bit tougher.

    I'm a velocity hawg and if a 130/140 bullet doesn't approach 3200 I get a bit down in the mouth.

    Best accuracy has been with Nosler 130 ballistic tips and Hornady 140 btsp.

    I've shot the cartridge since 1966 and had worked my way out to 640 yds when I got the LRH bug, before I gave the rifle to my son due to not wanting to change anything about it when I switched to shooting from the south side.

    Post a pic or so. Am having one built with a Boyd's stock.
     
  14. abinok

    abinok Writers Guild

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    Yep 4ked, id agree on all points. 4-6 will probably be good, but id imagine that the higher node would have morve velocity. not knowing for sure about 14, id start work on both sides of it, if it meats in the middle, GREAT!
    I id have a bit of a head start, since GRIT mentioned the wind in his email.

    Dan, nice to see you over hear, ive read a lot of your stuff elsewhere, and found that you and I tend to agree on a lot of things. I missed your posts up to now, welcome aboard!
    Oh, and one other thing, for everybody thinging you need a good spotting scope to shoot a ladder, no scope needed. I don't use one at 300, and never have. My sony video camera placed about 50ft short, and a bit to the right of the line of fire makes plotting shots easy.
    if you don't have a vid camera, or can't afford one at the present, get you some of the large square "dirtybird" targets that are designed for sighting in. WOrk just like the shoot n see targets, but are much cheaper.