Yorkplates
Well-Known Member
What exactly is involved in "trueing the action of a rifle?"
Can just any gunsmith do this? What are the approx. costs involved?
Can just any gunsmith do this? What are the approx. costs involved?
Trueing the action?
- Thread starter Yorkplates
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thocon
Well-Known Member
First the bolt head must be flat with the chamber,and the lugs flat with their surface,and the whole thing needs to be straight with the bore and then the back of the bolt must follow suit with the above.Then the safety issue,and the sear must match up with it's counter part.I would REAL picky as to whom i paid for thes services.Some guns are great from the factory and some are should be scrapped,not all actions can be fixed.Savage uses a floating bolt,so theirs follows the,center.I've seen 700's almost bend the case.I look at the back doors to products,if there making butt loads of after market parts,then their polishing a turd.And last but not least,are you having problems getting good groups?If you reload you can check your action yourself,install a new round with a mark or headstamp letter in the barrel with a mark on your gun,shoot it,do this to 3 or 4 rounds then neck size only,reaload shoot 2 rounds installed the same way,then 2 180 out.If ther not the same on paper you have problems.Around 6-7 hundred for truing with a new barrel.
littledevil2873
Well-Known Member
Hey Tho
I've got a local smith who charges 4 to 5 to do what you are talking about. The only thing he does not do is turn the inside of the bolt face. how much difference will this make. I have been thinking about letting him do a project but don't want to waste my money on a custom gun and it not shoot what I expect.
I've got a local smith who charges 4 to 5 to do what you are talking about. The only thing he does not do is turn the inside of the bolt face. how much difference will this make. I have been thinking about letting him do a project but don't want to waste my money on a custom gun and it not shoot what I expect.
i charge $300.00 to true up a remington action. face off the front of action. recut action threads,recut where lugs seat,recut bolt lugs front and back,recut face of bolt and the o.d of the face of bolt, ream action out to 0.705 then put two sleeves on the bolt. i true the bolt up to be centered from the firing pin hole. www.parrysgunsmithing.com
Yorkplates
Well-Known Member
Can you true-up a Weatherby action? Easier? Harder?
Learning all I can.
Learning all I can.
littledevil2873
Well-Known Member
How much to add a new barrel to the job you described above?
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Auburn Tiger,
There are varying degrees that many gunsmiths call blue-printing. Some offer little to no additional consistancy at all, others make extreme differences.
Here is my Rem 700 accurizing process.
Step one is to set the receiver up in a blue-printing jig. THis jig has front and rear bolts that are used to perfectly zero the receiver along the axis of the bolt way, NOT THE RECEIVER THREADS as they are always out of alignment.
This is done by fitting a precision ground mandrel that rides in two properly sized bushings that are positioned in the front and rear bolt way baring surfaces. These bushings come in various sizes to match to the receiver bolt way diameters. Once in place the mandrel is inserted into the receiver and supported by these cylindrical bushings.
The mandrel extends roughly 6" out from the front of the receiver face. Two 0.001" dial indicators are used to rough in the alignment of the receiver. One is positioned right at the receiver face area of the mandrel and the other is located 6" out on the tip of the mandrel.
The two sets of adjustment bolts, one on the front of the receiver and one on the rear, are used to bring the receiver into less then 0.001" concentricity.
Then two 0.0001" indicators are positioned and the receiver is adjusted into perfect alignment with the axis of the bolt way. I adjust until the needle on the indicators does not move as the receiver is turned in the lathe chuck.
With a receiver zeroed in this fashion, we know that it is in perfect alignment and that there is no conal run out in the receiver. This is the dramatic benefit of the multi point zeroing process.
Once the receiver is zeroed in this manor, the receiver threads are recut in perfect alignment with the axis of the bolt way. This assures that the bolt will be in perfect alignment with the bolt as well as being perfectly square to the receiver face, bolt face and bolt locking lugs and recesses.
After the threads are recut, which generally opens their diameter up to +0.010" to +0.015" over standard diameter to get them totally cleaned up, the bolt locking lug recesses are recut again perfectly square to not only the axis of the bolt but also to the freshly recut receiver threads.
Finally, the receiver face it trued with light facing cuts until it is totally free of any imperfections and it is perfectly square to the axis of the receiver as well.
If the customer is building a general big game rifle, I do not push receiver reaming or bolt sleeving unless they request it. And for rifles that the customer wants as much accuracy and consistancy as possible but still have a smooth working bolt, I recommend only installing a rear sleeve to the bolt. This will control rear bolt slop and there will be no bolt drop when the striker is released as the gap between the bolt and the receiver has been taken up by the rear bolt sleeve.
Also, when worked quickly the rear sleeve will not bind up as a double sleeved bolt can.
For a dedicated extreme range rifle, I recommend doing the works, reaming the bolt way and double sleeving the bolt. These rifles are not used in an excited manor though so they work smoothly.
Next comes the bolt work. First the botl is stripped and fitted with an arbor stub in the rear of the bolt. This arbor has a cone shaped end on it to allow it to slightly pivot in the lathe chuck for dialing in the bolt body for machining.
A small fixture is also fitted in the nose of the bolt which has an insert that fits the firing pin hole. The live center is then brought in and it rides in a center cut in the rear of this fixture. This prevents the live center from washing out the firing pin hole. For final critical cuts the live center rides directly in the firing pin hole.
The bolt body is then dialed in over its full length so that it is running true over its entire length.
If the bolt is to be sleeved, it is done now. Afterwhich the rear surface of the locking lugs are recut true as well as the front surface of the lugs and the front surface of the bolt face. This allow the barrel recess on the Rem 700 and liek receivers to be fitted very tightly and allow proper clearance.
Also, the bolt nose diameter is trued to a consistant diameter which again allows the bolt nose to be fitted to very quality clearance specs.
The diameter of the locking lugs can also be trued if needed at this point but this really does not effect accuracy or consistancy.
After these steps are finished, a collar is fitted to the bolt which is located around the locking lugs. This collar is then turned down perfectly concentric to the axis of the firing pin hole.
Once trued, the steady rest is used to support this collar with its three fingers. Then the tailstock can be removed and the bolt face is recut perfectly square to the axis of the bolt.
Basically the receiver and bolt at accurized at this point.
I then clean everything adn insert the bolt into the action and withthe bolt in the locked position, I take four measurements around the bolt face. THis measurement is from the bolt face to the forward surface of the recoil lug which is positioned on the receiver face.
The measurements are taken at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00 and 9:00 on the bolt face and they will have less then 0.0001" variation if everything is performed correctly in the accurizing process. If they have a variation larger then this, it is determined which dimension is out of and corrected before the rifle building process is started.
Also, after the receiver is proven true from these measurements, the bolt lugs are lapped in, startign with 600 grit lapping compound and then final lapped with 800 grit compound for a mirror smooth finish.
Most gunsmiths say they accurize actions but to be honest very few do it correctly. From reading Keggs post, he does it correctly as well.
I charge $175 to true the receiver with another $100 to ream and doubel sleeve the bolt.
This is right in there with most smiths that do this proceedure so I woudl say the price for completely truing a receiver should be in the $250 to $350 range depending on the area you are in.
Weatherby receivers are also easily trued inthis manor and respond very well to it. The only problem with them is that the multi lug design makes it nearly impossoble to recut the locking lug surfaces or the receiver recesses. Everything else can be performed for similar prices.
Good Shooting!!!
Kirby Allen(50)
There are varying degrees that many gunsmiths call blue-printing. Some offer little to no additional consistancy at all, others make extreme differences.
Here is my Rem 700 accurizing process.
Step one is to set the receiver up in a blue-printing jig. THis jig has front and rear bolts that are used to perfectly zero the receiver along the axis of the bolt way, NOT THE RECEIVER THREADS as they are always out of alignment.
This is done by fitting a precision ground mandrel that rides in two properly sized bushings that are positioned in the front and rear bolt way baring surfaces. These bushings come in various sizes to match to the receiver bolt way diameters. Once in place the mandrel is inserted into the receiver and supported by these cylindrical bushings.
The mandrel extends roughly 6" out from the front of the receiver face. Two 0.001" dial indicators are used to rough in the alignment of the receiver. One is positioned right at the receiver face area of the mandrel and the other is located 6" out on the tip of the mandrel.
The two sets of adjustment bolts, one on the front of the receiver and one on the rear, are used to bring the receiver into less then 0.001" concentricity.
Then two 0.0001" indicators are positioned and the receiver is adjusted into perfect alignment with the axis of the bolt way. I adjust until the needle on the indicators does not move as the receiver is turned in the lathe chuck.
With a receiver zeroed in this fashion, we know that it is in perfect alignment and that there is no conal run out in the receiver. This is the dramatic benefit of the multi point zeroing process.
Once the receiver is zeroed in this manor, the receiver threads are recut in perfect alignment with the axis of the bolt way. This assures that the bolt will be in perfect alignment with the bolt as well as being perfectly square to the receiver face, bolt face and bolt locking lugs and recesses.
After the threads are recut, which generally opens their diameter up to +0.010" to +0.015" over standard diameter to get them totally cleaned up, the bolt locking lug recesses are recut again perfectly square to not only the axis of the bolt but also to the freshly recut receiver threads.
Finally, the receiver face it trued with light facing cuts until it is totally free of any imperfections and it is perfectly square to the axis of the receiver as well.
If the customer is building a general big game rifle, I do not push receiver reaming or bolt sleeving unless they request it. And for rifles that the customer wants as much accuracy and consistancy as possible but still have a smooth working bolt, I recommend only installing a rear sleeve to the bolt. This will control rear bolt slop and there will be no bolt drop when the striker is released as the gap between the bolt and the receiver has been taken up by the rear bolt sleeve.
Also, when worked quickly the rear sleeve will not bind up as a double sleeved bolt can.
For a dedicated extreme range rifle, I recommend doing the works, reaming the bolt way and double sleeving the bolt. These rifles are not used in an excited manor though so they work smoothly.
Next comes the bolt work. First the botl is stripped and fitted with an arbor stub in the rear of the bolt. This arbor has a cone shaped end on it to allow it to slightly pivot in the lathe chuck for dialing in the bolt body for machining.
A small fixture is also fitted in the nose of the bolt which has an insert that fits the firing pin hole. The live center is then brought in and it rides in a center cut in the rear of this fixture. This prevents the live center from washing out the firing pin hole. For final critical cuts the live center rides directly in the firing pin hole.
The bolt body is then dialed in over its full length so that it is running true over its entire length.
If the bolt is to be sleeved, it is done now. Afterwhich the rear surface of the locking lugs are recut true as well as the front surface of the lugs and the front surface of the bolt face. This allow the barrel recess on the Rem 700 and liek receivers to be fitted very tightly and allow proper clearance.
Also, the bolt nose diameter is trued to a consistant diameter which again allows the bolt nose to be fitted to very quality clearance specs.
The diameter of the locking lugs can also be trued if needed at this point but this really does not effect accuracy or consistancy.
After these steps are finished, a collar is fitted to the bolt which is located around the locking lugs. This collar is then turned down perfectly concentric to the axis of the firing pin hole.
Once trued, the steady rest is used to support this collar with its three fingers. Then the tailstock can be removed and the bolt face is recut perfectly square to the axis of the bolt.
Basically the receiver and bolt at accurized at this point.
I then clean everything adn insert the bolt into the action and withthe bolt in the locked position, I take four measurements around the bolt face. THis measurement is from the bolt face to the forward surface of the recoil lug which is positioned on the receiver face.
The measurements are taken at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00 and 9:00 on the bolt face and they will have less then 0.0001" variation if everything is performed correctly in the accurizing process. If they have a variation larger then this, it is determined which dimension is out of and corrected before the rifle building process is started.
Also, after the receiver is proven true from these measurements, the bolt lugs are lapped in, startign with 600 grit lapping compound and then final lapped with 800 grit compound for a mirror smooth finish.
Most gunsmiths say they accurize actions but to be honest very few do it correctly. From reading Keggs post, he does it correctly as well.
I charge $175 to true the receiver with another $100 to ream and doubel sleeve the bolt.
This is right in there with most smiths that do this proceedure so I woudl say the price for completely truing a receiver should be in the $250 to $350 range depending on the area you are in.
Weatherby receivers are also easily trued inthis manor and respond very well to it. The only problem with them is that the multi lug design makes it nearly impossoble to recut the locking lug surfaces or the receiver recesses. Everything else can be performed for similar prices.
Good Shooting!!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
If you would like to see some pics of the accurizing process let me know and I can try to post some showing the different steps and processes.
Kirby Allen(50)
Kirby Allen(50)
C Knappenberger
Member
Can this process be performed on a Savage? I have a 110 FP and I am sure the gun shoots better than I do, but if I wanted a truely accurate "tack driver", would this process help. I was told by a gunsmith that there is not a lot you can do to accurize a Savage. It is either accurate or not. He said there is a lot he can do with a Remington action though. What is your take on this?
Knappy
Knappy
the way you said how you do your action truing is the same set up that i use with the gre-tan tooling. if you send me your barrel i charge $150.00 to chamber a bolt action rifle and $200.00 to chamber a mag. barrel threads will be spiral lock thread bead blast barrel and crown barrel. if you go to my web site on the home page is the holder that i use to put the action in and i also use that holder to put my barrel's in and dial the barrel in with a tapered bore rod to 1-tenth then i go in with a boring bar and true the chamber up then go in with the reamer and after thats done i thread the barrel in the same set up. if you are on my home page go to the brake page and you will see a blueprintted action and bolt. www.parrysgunsmithing.com
Shawn Carlock
Sponsor
Here are images of some of the operations completed that fiftydriver was talking about. The outside of the locking lugs have not been done yet as well as the bolt bushings. I use only a rear bushing and lock the front end up differently. You can see that the threads have been single pointed and facing surfaces are done. Who ever you get to preform the work make sure that you have confidence in their work befor you start. Good luck and good shooting.
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
Knappy,
Savages can cetainly be accurized. I really like to get rid of the barrel lock nut system and fit a barrel just as a Rem 700 is on teh Savage rifles. This does a couple things, first it solves the beddign problems associated with the Savage Barrel locking nut.
It also allows a heavier barrel shank to be used adding stiffness to the barrel.
It is true that this takes away the user friendliness of switching barrels on a Savage action but accuracy and consistancy increases.
For Savage rifles chambered in rounds such as the RUM, I willnot rebarrel a Savage rifle without fitting the barrel in this manor. THe RUM barrels have a larger thread diameter then standard caliber Savage rifles and as such, the barrel locking nut is thinned to allow teh fatter threads.
They have been having a problem with the thin locking nut cracking and when this happens, the barrel often unthreads from teh receiver and increased headspace, not to mention, the recoil becomes loose and the rifle starts to come apart very quickly unless it is noticed right away.
Because of this I simply remove this system and fit it like a Rem 700 and the problem is gone. I have not heard of any problems with the Savage rifles using the standard caliber rounds with the thicker barrel lock nuts.
A good bedding job will also go a long way to improving the performance of a Savage rifle, but it needs to be bedded correctly. The first Savage I ever bedded was a 223 on the old long action 110 before Savage had a short action.
This rifle averaged right at 1/2" at 100 yards for 5 shots out of the box but the owner wanted to restock the rifle with a nice heavy laminated stock.
I fitted the barreled action and pillar bedded the rifle in teh same fashion as a Rem 700 and totally floated the barrel as the factory rifle was.
The owner came up and we range tested the rifle and to my horror found the rifle to print in the 1.5" range with the same load as before. The owner was not very happy and I am sure I was a bit red faced.
I had another Savage rifle in the shop which was one of their heavy barreled tactical rifles. I did a little looking at the bedding on the factory rifle and quickly found a couple areas that were floated instead of contact bedded.
I releaved these areas on the restocked rifle and we headed back out to the range. This time the first five shots cuts a 1/4" single hole. I could start breathing again.
Most gunsmiths feel the Savage rifles are not worth working with, I personally feel they make as accuracte a custom rifle as any when built correctly.
To give you an example, the very first 270 Allen Mag that I built as a test rifle was built on a Savage 111 receiver that was chambered for a 300 RUM originally. It is shooting the 130 gr Ballistic Tips to 3850 fps and getting sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Have yet to test it at 500 yards but I will be suprised if it does not group under 1.5" with taylored loads at 500 yards.
Here are a couple pics of the rifle so you can see the barrel fitted without the locking nut.
This is an unfinished stock and the barrel is also unfinished as this is a test rifle only. Still it shows the barrel fitting system.
This system allows barrel diameters of up to 1.350" to be used on the Savage receiver compared to 1.0625" for standard calibers and around 1.120" for RUM Savage receivers with the larger diameter barrel threads.
For barrel stiffness, I do not like to start with anything smaller then 1.200" at the full diameter barrel shoulder and much prefer the standard 1.250" diameter which provides a larger, more positive barrel shoulder to bare against the recoil lug.
I also highly recommend replacing the factory recoil lug, just as with the Rem 700 lug, I use only Holland Comp Recoil Lugs on all of my customer rifles. For another $30, this is one of the best ways to increase rifle rigidity and consistancy to either a Rem 700 or a Savage 110 designed rifle.
Good Shooting!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Savages can cetainly be accurized. I really like to get rid of the barrel lock nut system and fit a barrel just as a Rem 700 is on teh Savage rifles. This does a couple things, first it solves the beddign problems associated with the Savage Barrel locking nut.
It also allows a heavier barrel shank to be used adding stiffness to the barrel.
It is true that this takes away the user friendliness of switching barrels on a Savage action but accuracy and consistancy increases.
For Savage rifles chambered in rounds such as the RUM, I willnot rebarrel a Savage rifle without fitting the barrel in this manor. THe RUM barrels have a larger thread diameter then standard caliber Savage rifles and as such, the barrel locking nut is thinned to allow teh fatter threads.
They have been having a problem with the thin locking nut cracking and when this happens, the barrel often unthreads from teh receiver and increased headspace, not to mention, the recoil becomes loose and the rifle starts to come apart very quickly unless it is noticed right away.
Because of this I simply remove this system and fit it like a Rem 700 and the problem is gone. I have not heard of any problems with the Savage rifles using the standard caliber rounds with the thicker barrel lock nuts.
A good bedding job will also go a long way to improving the performance of a Savage rifle, but it needs to be bedded correctly. The first Savage I ever bedded was a 223 on the old long action 110 before Savage had a short action.
This rifle averaged right at 1/2" at 100 yards for 5 shots out of the box but the owner wanted to restock the rifle with a nice heavy laminated stock.
I fitted the barreled action and pillar bedded the rifle in teh same fashion as a Rem 700 and totally floated the barrel as the factory rifle was.
The owner came up and we range tested the rifle and to my horror found the rifle to print in the 1.5" range with the same load as before. The owner was not very happy and I am sure I was a bit red faced.
I had another Savage rifle in the shop which was one of their heavy barreled tactical rifles. I did a little looking at the bedding on the factory rifle and quickly found a couple areas that were floated instead of contact bedded.
I releaved these areas on the restocked rifle and we headed back out to the range. This time the first five shots cuts a 1/4" single hole. I could start breathing again.
Most gunsmiths feel the Savage rifles are not worth working with, I personally feel they make as accuracte a custom rifle as any when built correctly.
To give you an example, the very first 270 Allen Mag that I built as a test rifle was built on a Savage 111 receiver that was chambered for a 300 RUM originally. It is shooting the 130 gr Ballistic Tips to 3850 fps and getting sub 1/2" groups at 100 yards. Have yet to test it at 500 yards but I will be suprised if it does not group under 1.5" with taylored loads at 500 yards.
Here are a couple pics of the rifle so you can see the barrel fitted without the locking nut.
This is an unfinished stock and the barrel is also unfinished as this is a test rifle only. Still it shows the barrel fitting system.
This system allows barrel diameters of up to 1.350" to be used on the Savage receiver compared to 1.0625" for standard calibers and around 1.120" for RUM Savage receivers with the larger diameter barrel threads.
For barrel stiffness, I do not like to start with anything smaller then 1.200" at the full diameter barrel shoulder and much prefer the standard 1.250" diameter which provides a larger, more positive barrel shoulder to bare against the recoil lug.
I also highly recommend replacing the factory recoil lug, just as with the Rem 700 lug, I use only Holland Comp Recoil Lugs on all of my customer rifles. For another $30, this is one of the best ways to increase rifle rigidity and consistancy to either a Rem 700 or a Savage 110 designed rifle.
Good Shooting!!
Kirby Allen(50)
Fiftydriver
Official LRH Sponsor
I would like to echo what Shawn stated, it does not matter who does your work, we are just all giving you information so you can find a smith that will do your project correctly and at an acceptable price.
Do your home work and find a smith that builds rifles like this for a living. Not a basement gunsmith that has built one or two Mauser 98 rifles.
There are plenty out there that can give you exactly what you want, and in most cases, more then you ever imagined would be possible if your used to factory rifles.
There are three of us alone that have responded with information that do this for a living, make sure your smith does as well. These rifles can get expensive quick.
But, if your rifle is printing 1" to 1.5" groups at 500 yards and often less, your will forget the cost in money once you have the quality rifle.
IT will be alot more expansive if you have someone do this that does not do it correctly and the results will show up loud and clear on target.
Good Shooting,
Kirby Allen(50)
Do your home work and find a smith that builds rifles like this for a living. Not a basement gunsmith that has built one or two Mauser 98 rifles.
There are plenty out there that can give you exactly what you want, and in most cases, more then you ever imagined would be possible if your used to factory rifles.
There are three of us alone that have responded with information that do this for a living, make sure your smith does as well. These rifles can get expensive quick.
But, if your rifle is printing 1" to 1.5" groups at 500 yards and often less, your will forget the cost in money once you have the quality rifle.
IT will be alot more expansive if you have someone do this that does not do it correctly and the results will show up loud and clear on target.
Good Shooting,
Kirby Allen(50)
