johnnyk
Well-Known Member
How big of a raw block of Ti would one need to turn it into a receiver, say model 700 clone (i.e. what would be the minimum dimensions)? How much would the machine work cost? JohnnyK.
Titanium Receivers
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FMI
Active Member
If it's just a one time deal you'd be better of buying a Ti Rem or Browning and stripping it down. Ti is expensive and machining it is not easy or affordable.
VIERSCO.COM
This guy builds custom recievers out of TI and frequents this site. I would start there.
This guy builds custom recievers out of TI and frequents this site. I would start there.
JK I don't think you would want it block form. Rem actions are around 1.36", I don't remember the exact measurement, so I figure 1.50" round stock should do. I have some 1.50" ti round stock and I would guess you would need about 10" long for a long action. I have been thinking about contacting Stiller or somebody else to see if they would build me a receiver if I supplied them the ti. I don't have a clue what this stuff sells for but I know its exspensive, this peice was left over from a job that we completed and I don't remember what grade it is. Heck I figure the lowest grade of ti should be better than most of the steel that the gunmakers are using. Maybe someone will give us some more info.
David
David
dlebeck
Well-Known Member
TI actions / Stiller Actions
Man oh man, let us know what Jerry says about that.
Doug
Man oh man, let us know what Jerry says about that.
Doug
James Jones
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Their is a big misconception that titanium is stronger than steel and this is both correct and incorrect , kinda like fluted barrel being stiffer than non fluted barrels.
if you make an action out of titanium that is the exact same dimentions as the rem 700 made from Chrome moly the titanium reciever will NOT be stronger than the CM reciever , it will be lighter but not stronger.
Now if you make a reciever out of titanium that is the same WEIGHT as the rem 700 CM reciever then it will be stronger but it will be a significant amout larger also.
Grade 5 titanium that has been heat treated for maximum strentgh has a yield strength of about 110,000psi - 115,000 psi and at this point its a total pain in the *** to machine basicaly only alloing very high speed solid carbide tools.
4140 CM that has been heat treated to maximum strength has a yield strength of 100,000psi - 110,000psi and it machines better after its been heat threated.
Now I kow your thinking that well you just typed that the titanium is stronger , and it is , on a weight to weight ratio meaning that 3 foot long titanium bar that WEIGHS 20lbs will be stronger than the same length bar made from CM but it will be alot bigger in diameter. If the part is going to be used in cryo temps around 200 degs below zero then the ti will take the lead in strength.
So if you want an action that the same size as the stock remington 700 then the titanium action will not be the way to go , but if you wanta remington clone that the same weight as the stock rem then yea the ti will be great.
you would actualy be better off making a scaled down action like those from New Ultra Lite Arms and make it out of a better alloy like 17-4PH that has a yield strength in the area of 150,000psi after heat treatment.
7068 alloy aluminum is actualy very close in strength to both of those and its lighter in weight. 95,000psi -105,000psi but its yiel strenght is very close to its faliure strength so their will likely be no warning before a catrostrophic failure , where the Steels and the titanium will streach a little and give a very little warning first.
I have a good bit of titanium bar stock around here that I've been using to build a couple silencers with and I'm not impressed with it that much at all. But trying to make the lightest most effecient can possible it is a great material for that job as their is not that much pressure involved.
if you make an action out of titanium that is the exact same dimentions as the rem 700 made from Chrome moly the titanium reciever will NOT be stronger than the CM reciever , it will be lighter but not stronger.
Now if you make a reciever out of titanium that is the same WEIGHT as the rem 700 CM reciever then it will be stronger but it will be a significant amout larger also.
Grade 5 titanium that has been heat treated for maximum strentgh has a yield strength of about 110,000psi - 115,000 psi and at this point its a total pain in the *** to machine basicaly only alloing very high speed solid carbide tools.
4140 CM that has been heat treated to maximum strength has a yield strength of 100,000psi - 110,000psi and it machines better after its been heat threated.
Now I kow your thinking that well you just typed that the titanium is stronger , and it is , on a weight to weight ratio meaning that 3 foot long titanium bar that WEIGHS 20lbs will be stronger than the same length bar made from CM but it will be alot bigger in diameter. If the part is going to be used in cryo temps around 200 degs below zero then the ti will take the lead in strength.
So if you want an action that the same size as the stock remington 700 then the titanium action will not be the way to go , but if you wanta remington clone that the same weight as the stock rem then yea the ti will be great.
you would actualy be better off making a scaled down action like those from New Ultra Lite Arms and make it out of a better alloy like 17-4PH that has a yield strength in the area of 150,000psi after heat treatment.
7068 alloy aluminum is actualy very close in strength to both of those and its lighter in weight. 95,000psi -105,000psi but its yiel strenght is very close to its faliure strength so their will likely be no warning before a catrostrophic failure , where the Steels and the titanium will streach a little and give a very little warning first.
I have a good bit of titanium bar stock around here that I've been using to build a couple silencers with and I'm not impressed with it that much at all. But trying to make the lightest most effecient can possible it is a great material for that job as their is not that much pressure involved.
Black Diamond 408
Well-Known Member
Johnny,
I have done a lot of work with Ti material, it is very difficult to machine vs stainless or Chrome-Moly. I make my recievers a bit larger than the std stock reciever for the added strength. I only do full bolt type receivers so there is not a lot of weight reduction due to the bolt being a larger dia it weighs more.
End product is an action that is very close in weight to that of a standard action only much stronger. (Like what James has stated) I usually go at least .100 larger dia on Ti action, rem 700 1.350" my Ti would be 1.450" dia.
I have built several for 408 C-T type wildcats, 1.700" dia Octagon style 11" long. It was right at 3# completed, the same in steel would of been over 5#, quite a savings in weight. This rifle with ABS carbon bbl, carbon stock was 11# finished weight.
It is very expensive to have a Ti billet deep drilled and Wire EDM machined, 300-400$ for a small run of parts. This would be the 700 Clone type of action. The full bolt action only requires the billet to be deep drilled and honed, much more reasonable. This is the reason you dont see more Ti recievers being sold to date. Tooling dont last very long, takes special taps and they are spendy.
I only work with Ti for specialty projects, it takes at least three times longer machining time. Mostly i build muzzle brakes, firing pins and other small parts for weight reduction. I'm working on a proto type Ti action that will be the lightest and strongest avalible, i will post results when testing is started. It will have the 375 chey-tac chambered into an ABS bbl, total overall weight estimated 9.5# (bare rifle)
Depending on what cartridge your going to use i would just buy a Rem or Browning for the action.
Dave
I have done a lot of work with Ti material, it is very difficult to machine vs stainless or Chrome-Moly. I make my recievers a bit larger than the std stock reciever for the added strength. I only do full bolt type receivers so there is not a lot of weight reduction due to the bolt being a larger dia it weighs more.
End product is an action that is very close in weight to that of a standard action only much stronger. (Like what James has stated) I usually go at least .100 larger dia on Ti action, rem 700 1.350" my Ti would be 1.450" dia.
I have built several for 408 C-T type wildcats, 1.700" dia Octagon style 11" long. It was right at 3# completed, the same in steel would of been over 5#, quite a savings in weight. This rifle with ABS carbon bbl, carbon stock was 11# finished weight.
It is very expensive to have a Ti billet deep drilled and Wire EDM machined, 300-400$ for a small run of parts. This would be the 700 Clone type of action. The full bolt action only requires the billet to be deep drilled and honed, much more reasonable. This is the reason you dont see more Ti recievers being sold to date. Tooling dont last very long, takes special taps and they are spendy.
I only work with Ti for specialty projects, it takes at least three times longer machining time. Mostly i build muzzle brakes, firing pins and other small parts for weight reduction. I'm working on a proto type Ti action that will be the lightest and strongest avalible, i will post results when testing is started. It will have the 375 chey-tac chambered into an ABS bbl, total overall weight estimated 9.5# (bare rifle)
Depending on what cartridge your going to use i would just buy a Rem or Browning for the action.
Dave
johnnyk
Well-Known Member
The guy who gave me this stuff said it's "Ti 4 6". Not sure what that means. Don't know if he meant 46 or what, but he said 4 6(four six)...JohnnyK.
James Jones
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He probably meant to say 6-4 meaning its 6AL-4V or Grade 5 which is the top end strength wise heat treatable pretty hard and strong as is though.
How big of a piece do you have? I might be intersted in buying it if your action idea falls through. I use it to make baffels for silencers.
How big of a piece do you have? I might be intersted in buying it if your action idea falls through. I use it to make baffels for silencers.
johnnyk
Well-Known Member
James,
Sorry, didn't mean to ignore you at all. Been busier than the proverbial "one-legged man". About the block of Ti, I have two peices; one is round stock and the other is block form, both are about 12-14" long and thick. Will get exact measurements and reply back. JohnnyK.
Sorry, didn't mean to ignore you at all. Been busier than the proverbial "one-legged man". About the block of Ti, I have two peices; one is round stock and the other is block form, both are about 12-14" long and thick. Will get exact measurements and reply back. JohnnyK.
I do a lot of work with titanium engine parts.
Ti-17 is absolutely up to the task, but it is not cheap.
Mechanical Properties
Density lb/in3 (g/cm3) 0.168 (4.65)
Metallurgical Condition 1,650 °F + age
Tensile Strength, ksi (MPa) 165 (1,138)
0.2% Yield Strength, ksi (MPa) 155 (1,069)
Elongation, % 12
Reduction in Area, % 25
Typical Hardness 38 HRC
This is very close to Rc 37 4140 quenched and tempered.
edge.
Ti-17 is absolutely up to the task, but it is not cheap.
Mechanical Properties
Density lb/in3 (g/cm3) 0.168 (4.65)
Metallurgical Condition 1,650 °F + age
Tensile Strength, ksi (MPa) 165 (1,138)
0.2% Yield Strength, ksi (MPa) 155 (1,069)
Elongation, % 12
Reduction in Area, % 25
Typical Hardness 38 HRC
This is very close to Rc 37 4140 quenched and tempered.
edge.
johnnyk
Well-Known Member
James,
You asked about the Ti that I have? One is round stock; 1.75 D x 15". The other piece is 1 13/16 x 3 3/8 x 18.5"...JohnnyK.
You asked about the Ti that I have? One is round stock; 1.75 D x 15". The other piece is 1 13/16 x 3 3/8 x 18.5"...JohnnyK.
