Time to eat crow

Discussion in 'Muzzleloader Hunting' started by ENCORE, Aug 5, 2014.

  1. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    Well you guys cook up the crow and I'll eat it. I have no problem admitting that I learned something new, that I originally thought different of.

    I have received a good education why the Ultimate Firearm rifle and the new Remington Ultimate rifle, ARE NOT DESIGNED to shoot BH209. Also why BH should NOT be shot from them. Its not because the rifle won't shoot or handle BH, its the actual design of the ignition system, nipple design and brass cases used and the properties of BH.

    I had shot BH from the Ultimate with no problems and excellent long rang accuracy. Although when shooting heavy charges of 135grs volume, the rifle shot better groups when swabbed every 3rd shot or so. During my last shooting session, I suddenly started getting considerable blowback. A lot of blowback! Something that had NEVER happened previously. My cases were terrible dirty. I cleaned the rifle barrel, then had my work cut out cleaning the chamber and action. When I checked out the nipple, it was clearly gas cut, BAD.


    I took photos of the cases and shipped them off within an email to Ken Johnston, who promptly called me. Yesterday I met with Ken at his home and we proceeded to make what he thought would be a 30 minute replacement. Now I wasn't scolded but, I was educated why I shouldn't shoot BH from the Ultimate. I watched Ken remove the barrel, then attempt to remove the breech plug. It became very evident to me it wasn't going to happen. Try as Ken did, that breech plug was not going to be removed normally. The barrel then went into the lathe and it was drilled. After it was drilled, the first easy-out wouldn't remove the remaining plug threads so a larger easy-out was used. As I watched the process I fully expected to ante up for a new barrel. Finally the remaining plug was removed.


    The barrel was cleaned and thoroughly inspected, then the new breech plug was installed. The rifle was reassembled, scope mounted and then handed to me while I was being told, "In the condition you first received it." As stated before, I wasn't scolded, I was educated why BH should not be used in the rifle, or the Remington Ultimate for that matter. Ken explained that he's replaced just three breech plugs prior to mine and EVERY ONE was because BH209 was shot from them. He told me that the replacement of a breech plug is extremely uncommon for him. It appears that any leak of gas when using BH in the UF or RU ignition systems, will immediately cut that nipple. Another reason that the brass have a life span of 3 to 4 primes.


    There's no doubt going to be some negative feedback on this but, I'll try to put it this way........ If the person who developed and designed the ignition system, the IDENTICAL system used in both the UF rifle and the new Remington Ultimate rifle, states DO NOT use BH209 in that ignition system and, Remington itself is promoting shooting only pellets, there's a reason..........

    As always, I had a great couple hours with Ken Johnston and also learned much more. I'm proud to call Ken a friend, hope he feels the same. I'm happy as hell to own one of his muzzleloaders.
     
  2. ATH

    ATH Well-Known Member

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    Yup. I HAD a plug for a home-built smokeless gun that used a similar design. It all worked great until a single shot gas-cut the nipple, and it was toast. Went back to press-fit 209 plug design.

    The case-on-nipple works for BP and subs, but not smokeless (and Blackhorn is really a smokeless).
     

  3. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.
     
  4. FrontierGander

    FrontierGander Well-Known Member

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    thats why i like my quick release breech plug on a CVA, it seals up the threads gun)
     
  5. 651

    651 Member

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    Good to know Encore! My UF ships tomorrow. So I'm off to get pellets. Yuck!
     
  6. sourdough44

    sourdough44 Well-Known Member

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    Balckhorn 209 has been out for a fair time. It doesn't seem right to develop a new high performance M-L that can't routinely shoot B209.

    Loose 777 may give velocities close to B209, pellets too. Most of the rest will probably fall a bit short in FPS.
     
  7. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    That's an Apple to Orange comparison. It wasn't just a thread seal issue. Its related solely to the properties of BH and the ignition system.


    :) You sound exactly like I did. "Pellets! BS!" :rolleyes: Well if I were shooting a production rifle, I wouldn't be shooting pellets. This AIN'T no production rifle :D

    What owners (you and I) have to get through our heads is, this rifle is DESIGNED to shoot pellets and do it very well. What we think we can do with the rifle, has already been tried. Ken has shooters sending 10's of thousands of rounds yearly to find the perfect load. These rifles have set a box full of records and harvested tons of game at very long range. We are so used to "tinkering" with half ask production rifles, its hard to understand all this has already been completed for us. I'll admit, I was one of those people. In doing so, I created myself a problem which Ken resolved and I learned a valuable lesson.

    GET READY! You're about to receive a quality rifle. If you follow the recommendations, you're going to be a very happy shooter. Don't just put it in the safe after shooting it a dozen times. Get it on the range and shoot it, a lot. I've put over 300 rounds through mine and expect to have at least 500 through it by the season's start. Its a blast!!!

    Just an FYI......... I found that moving up to the larger 2" round patches for swabbing works much better than those supplied. Dampen the patches with Butch's Black Powder Bore Shine. Don't make them sop and wet, just DAMP.

    If you ever want to discuss shooting the UF rifle, PM me and I'll give you my phone number......... Man these things are fun! Been a long time since I've had this much FUN with a muzzleloader.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. b.kleynhans

    b.kleynhans Well-Known Member

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    Encore for that matter any muzzleloader are fun to shoot !
     
  9. Nomosendero

    Nomosendero Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for letting us know ! I am going to rethink the Rem now for sure. I don't like the idea of being dependent on one type powder in case their production is hampered, etc. because shelf life doesn't appear to be very good for T7.
     
  10. b.kleynhans

    b.kleynhans Well-Known Member

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    Can the Rem not be used with smokeless like IMR ?
     
  11. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    NO........ per manufacturer. If you use smokeless you're on your own.
     
  12. FrontierGander

    FrontierGander Well-Known Member

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    better to just do the old rem 700 SML conversion and its a heck of a lot cheaper too.
     
  13. ENCORE

    ENCORE Well-Known Member

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    More than had the chance and still have two quotes. However I didn't want smokeless, can't hunt with it here anyway. I don't want the choice of 3 bullets and I surely don't feel like duplexing loads. I need something that goes bang when its 0°F and I'm hunting in a snow storm. Oh one more thing, I've NEVER of an Ultimate Firearms muzzleloader blowing up, sending the shooter or bystanders to the hospital.
     
  14. b.kleynhans

    b.kleynhans Well-Known Member

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    As the latest craze is SML'ing I thought the Rem would be a smokeless rifle too.
    Myself I prefer using black powder and side lock rifles but the more modern guns are still very interesting to me.