The Horus reticle scope system

[peterb]

After initially asking questions about the MilDot system, I was introduced to the Horus system. after some reading I believe it appears to be an expansion on the MilDot system. Please correct me if I am wrong !
Three questions come to mind.
Firstly, according to one Oz website, this system is restricted to military and law enforcement in Oz and New Zealand. Any ideas if this is the case?
Secondly, the reticles seem very cluttered (maybe busy would be a better description). Does this make the target animal hard to distinguish ?
Finally, quite a lot of scopes shift off target when zoomed despite what the manufacturer may claim. It seems the real top of the range scopes appear to hold their centres. How do the scopes manufactured with the Horus system behave ? (The ones I found were makes I did not recognise.)
Cheers,
Pete.

 

[theodore]

Yes, it is like a upgrade version from mil-dot, easier to use for me than mil-dot. Now I can make a chart in increasement by 20, 15 then 10 yards as I go further out. Reason is each jump take each hash mark which is .2 mil apart.

1.Don't know about foreign country laws.

2.I looked at some deer past 700 yards with it and was able to see them very well with the grid in the way. Even when it got dark, I compared it to the leupold vx-3 at same power and horus was actually better even with the busy grid due to better glass.

3.I believe you are talking about focal planes, most scopes are made with the reticle in the second focal plane which causes problem for using the reticle for hold-off as magnification changes.
Reticle in the front focal planes adjusts in size as magnification changes. So at low power, the reticle will be small then at max power the reticle is large in the scope. To make the reticle visible in horus, it needs to be like at least 6x-8x otherwise the reticle is too small to see.

 

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

I have an Hours Vision Hawk and I believe it is in the 1st focal plane but not 100% on that. I have used it to range whitetail deer with some success. I always back the power off to do it however. I do not find the target grid cluttered and if I could afford a falcon I would trade in my MK 4 for it in a heart beat.

I dont think anyone would know if your ordered one and put it on your rifle and dought veary highley that it is restricted anyhow.

 

[peterb]

This is sounding more attractive all the time.
Re focal planes. I hav a young friend who has a Nightforce scope and he tells me that the aim point of impact does not shift with a change in zoom. I know the Leupolds are the same. Both these scopes are first focal plane jobs, so maybe that is why.
I have a second focal plane reticle and that really does shift. I have managed to work out that it shifts 1 MOA right and 1 MOA down when going from 10 - 40 power at 100 yards. That can be challenging, but not being too adventurous, always shoot at 10 power.
I take it that with the Horus system, all you need to do is zero at 100 yds, then apply the 'hold over - off' technique from then on. No more dial - up
Another question, from what I have read and from the comments you have posted, is this type of scope still suitable for the shorter ranges - say under 400 yards ?
Mind you, after a couple of posting events, I have certainly learned heaps and now have a very definite direction to travel in mind.
Cheers,
Pete

 

[theodore]

The hawk model is perfect (and is designed) for under 500 yards....it has a fixed 100 yard parralax focus so 500 yards is the comfortable range, 800 yards... the out of focus is noticable which means either the reticle or field of view will become blurrish due to the fixed 100 yard parralax.
I sent my Hawk back for the Raptor model, currently under delivery. The raptor model has the adjustable parralax which allows it to shoot up to 1800 yard with turret adjustment according to Horus Vision. But the Falcon was said to go even farther.

All Horus visions scopes have there reticle in the first focal plane and can still use the turret as adjustment which expands the range greatly.

I think leupold (Mark 4 ER/T front focal) and night force (3.5-15x50 F1) are the only model with the front focal plane, the rest of leupolds and nightforce scopes are in second plane.

 

[ICANHITHIMMAN]

My MK4 is in the 2nd focal plane.

I have used my raptor to 800 yards with my 308win. I expect to put it on my 260 rem and stretch it a bit further.

 

[theodore]

I noticed several negative feedbacks on other posts from this website about horus vision scopes. It seems to me that the company has improved its optic greatly from the older models. -Checking into it.

 

[peterb]

Dunno if I can do this, but to digress a tad, I have two scopes with illuminated reticles. I have compared notes with another friend who also has a illuminated reticle scope. We both find that any illumination at all tends to make it hard to see past the reticle to the target.
I mean, if you can't see the reticle, then you can't see the target anyway - so go home.
So, I ask; what in the hell is the use of an illuminated reticle and how do you guys find them?

 

[peterb]

This is sort of on the same thread.

I have two scopes that have illuminated reticles. If you turn the retilce illumination on, you can't see past it very easily. (Both have variable rheostat illumination)
So, why in heaven's name would you have an illuminated reticle if it blanks out the target in poor light ?
Do they have a practical use (am I dumb ?) or are they just another gadget fitted to sell scopes ?

Cheers,

Pete.

 

[Jon A]

Peter, you need to try some other scopes before jumping to that conclusion. A good illumination system not only has practical use, but will allow you you make shots in conditions that will amaze you, that you would have zero chance of making without it.

The best I've used/owned have been the S&B and Premier which both had the same reticle (Gen II) and very similar illumination performance. Only the center cross illuminates and on the lowest setting it needs to be really dark before you can even see it at all. Not too long ago, I made a first round hit on a gong at over 1000 yds in virtually complete darkness with the Premier. As impressive as the optical performance was to allow me to see the target at all (it was not visible to the naked eye--not even close) was the illumination performance, allowing me to see the reticle well enough to aim without washing out such a dim target.

But you are very correct in that many illuminated scopes are too bright even in their lowest settings to be useful for really low light conditions.

That's not the fault of the concept, but the execution.

 

[peterb]

Hi Jon,
I had a night vision scope years ago - used to use it on foxes and cats in our outside piggery. Really good.
But I am not talking about night vision scopes - just a regular scope fitted with an illluminated reticle facility
Now, these reticles do dim right down, but I fail to see how you can see a target when the light is poor, or even really dark. I do have really good night vision myself, but I still can't see what use the illumination is.
However, never let it be said that I didn't try something a bit different.
I will go out tomorrow night and give it a shot and come back to this forum better equipped to give an opinion.
Until then,
Cheers,
Pete.

 

[Jon A]

I wasn't talking about a nightvision scope. Just a scope with really good glass and a really good illumination system.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think capability to do the above is needed for a hunting scope as that was well above and beyond--I wouldn't take a shot at anything when it's that dark, certainly not at that range. In fact, most of my hunting career has been without illumination at all; with a good reticle I don't think it's often needed for hunting though there are many situations where it can be helpful.

The above was just an extreme example of what a really good one can allow you to do that you simply would have no chance of accomplishing without it. Whether you need or want that or not is up to you.

And your observations are correct for many, if not most, illuminated scopes--even on the lowest settings they are too bright for really low light and wash out the target. I'm just telling you that is not true for all of them.

 

[peterb]

Jon,
I am having the most diabolical net problems and this will be the fourth time I have sent this reply.
lightbulb
Very quickly, tried the reticle illuminated at its lowest power (useless at any other - complete washout) and on a really dark target in poor light, it was miles better than the plain reticle which was almost impossible to see.
I dont shoot anything that is that dark, so probably have no need of the illumination.
If you are shooting Black Bear (which I hope is black) then there would most likely be a need.
I do see where you are coming from now.

Cheers,
Pete.

 

[GOING FOR 2500]

I have been using a Horus Falcon with a H-37 reticle on my 700P-.308 for 3 years shooting at 1000 Yds.

Would never change to another brand for long range.

If off POI read the grid and fire again. No knob turning after zeroing at 100 Yds.

I have the same one on my new M-96 Windrunner-.408, which I intend to reach out to 2500 Yds. Except I will zero this gun at 1000 Yds. when I finish working loads.