The Frustration Continues!!

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by BML, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. BML

    BML Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    97
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2009
    So I've been developing a load for my Savage 6.5x284 for what seems like an eternity now. Finally about a month ago I found a load that shot .354. I had to scrap my old brass before I could retest that load, but with brand new brass I shot .455. I finally thought I had found my load so I loaded up 10 rounds to shoot at 300 yards this past weekend.

    Here's the load:
    Norma Brass
    140g AMAX .010 into the lands.
    Fed 210 primer
    51.0g H4831SC

    I shot all 10 rounds this weekend and what a disappointment! Here's the results: Could only stretch it to 283 yards where I shot that day.

    [​IMG]

    This is max load for my rifle. I get minor extractor marks on the case head but it's by far the best velocities and ES out of all the loads I've tested. Of the 10 shots, I took off the highest and lowest speeds and the average was 3074 with an ES of 14.

    Again this was with brand new brass so I know I will have to retest again with fire formed brass. My new brass prep included neck sizing, turned necks, trimmed, chamfered and de burred.


    Any thoughts on why I am all over the place with these 10? I know I am no where near being a good 1000 yard shooter, but 283 yards is not a difficult shooting distance for me at all.
     
  2. Lefty7mmstw

    Lefty7mmstw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,280
    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    Was it hotter out the last time at the range? I'm getting roughly the same groups out of my rifles whether the brass is fired or not. Fresh brass simply isn't that different to make a 1/2" or less load toss to 4-5" at 300 like that. You should by at 1.5"-2" at that range.
    You are also rather hot on your powder charge considering you are into the jamb. Hodgdon online lists 49.5 as top load in the 6.5x284 with a 140speer and 50.3 with a 142 sierra. I don't have the hornady book but trust hodgdon that their charges aren't soft. I've hit the wall with their data half-way up more than once.
     

  3. BML

    BML Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    97
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2009
    Temps were a touch cooler this time. The sun broke through the clouds after shot 5 so I put up the EZ up for shade. I did not shoot from under it but rather used the shade to keep the barrel from heating up from surface heat.

    I know I'm at max load. The best I've been able to shoot with any seating depth out of the lands has been .441 with 48g but I'm only getting 2600 (ill have to check) or so fps. I wasn't able to reproduce that result and 2600 won't give me the down range energy I need anyway.


    I've tested every powder charge seated at .010 into the lands except 50.8, 50.7 and 50.6. I guess before I try anything else I should test those first.
     
  4. Lefty7mmstw

    Lefty7mmstw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,280
    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    What I'm getting at is you are stressing your rifle; why would it shoot well. I often don't shoot max. powder charge for a rifle, as it usually screws up accuracy even if it helps uniformity.
    An hour ago I was loading some 270's that go about 2700 fps with a 130. They shoot great, but that bullet is flakey if I take it to 3000 fps. I usually am off the rifling at least .020" also. Setting on the lands or worse into the lands, will raise your pressure a bunch. It's effect is equal to at least a grain or two in powder charge added.
    I think you are wasting a bit of time at .1 grain differences in powder and should stay to 1/2 grain. I don't even bother with .1 grain in my 5.56 nato.
    You are about 100 fps slow according to Hodgdon, and that's about normal for a lot of sporters. I don't get over 3K on many 270 loads even if they speck at 3100 fps with 130's.
    Why don't you try hybrid 100v or I 4350, as they show lower charge weight and higher velocity. The faster burning powder will drop your muzzle pressure, which likes to kick the rear of the bullet out and instigate yaw. Yaw won't be very apparent at 100, but will blow your group as you get out a ways.
     
  5. green 788

    green 788 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    563
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2005
    When you have the right load, it won't be that sensitive to new brass--it should still shoot tight, like usual.

    here is a link to my OCW load development method... it should help you get the right load in 20 shots or less... then if you want to fine tune it for even greater accuracy, you can go to seating depth adjustments and fire another 20 shots or so... and you'll be there.

    OCW Overview - Dan Newberry's OCW Load Development System

    lots of folks prefer H4350 over 4831 in the 6.5/284, others recommend slower powders, H1000 being mention a lot, but at charges higher than Hodgdon's data shows for max... but whatever powder you choose, your load development method will be key in finding the right powder charge.


    Dan
     
  6. BML

    BML Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    97
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2009
    Dan,

    I appreciate that link. There's some great info there. I wish I would have read it about 200 rounds ago. I knew NOTHING about reloading when I started. Although I have learned a lot I feel like I have wasted more time and money than it's been worth. It's very frustrating. I'm going on two years now and I sometimes feel like I'm still where I first started. I'm going to give your method a try. I have a couple questions for you. I have a brand new tub of H4831sc still. In your opinion should I stick with it or try the H4350? And second I only have 10 pieces of fire formed brass. Will your method work with brand new brass or should I fire form 10 more pieces first?

    Thanks again for all the tips fellas. I appreciate it.
     
  7. Lefty7mmstw

    Lefty7mmstw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,280
    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    I'd save the 4831 for an unforseen future project. I've been loading for years and when you get that "new" toy it very well may take your leftover powder. I've got partial or full pounds for at least 1/2 dozen powders I don't use on the shelf in addition to enough powder to load for the ten rifles I have. I have to inventory now and again to make sure I have stuff around when I want to stuff brass. Both 4350 powders work well, and I've got both loaded at present.
    I like Imr's average accuracy better(many long range shooters used I4350 in 300win rifles in the day), but h4350 is working well in my 25wssm with 120 grain speer bt's. I personally shoot mostly reloader powders, but sometimes the rifle simply wants Hodgdon or Imr.
     
  8. green 788

    green 788 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    563
    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2005
    You can use the new brass (so long as we're not talking Ackley Improved here, which I don't think we are)...

    You can use fired brass, or new brass either one... just keep all cases in the test as uniform (all new, all once fired, all twice fired, etc) as possible.

    As to which powder you use, it's hard to say... some like the 4831, some prefer 4350... but there does seem to be a trend beginning toward H1000 and Retumbo (and presumably RL25) powders, which give a compressed load.

    I use Retumbo in my .243 win... I think I was among the first to begin doing this some years back, pushing 107's to 3000 fps with it... lots of folks at the time said that powder was too slow, but results were amazing...

    The 6.5-284 (with 140+ weight bullets) would probably work well with Retumbo also, but I might call Hodgdon for some info before setting starting and max loads. They do have H1000 data on their website, and that powder is very close to Retumbo--maybe a tad faster, but very close.

    Dan
     
  9. Lefty7mmstw

    Lefty7mmstw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,280
    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    I'm not seeing where you've tried more than one bullet. Some bullets simply don't like some barrels. The bullet is a good portion(read most) of your accuracy so you may be chasing ghosts trying only powder swaps, etc.. I'd put a sierra or berger in it if you haven't. Are you dead set on a 140? Some rifles will do better with another weight, say 129 in your case.

    Did the rifle have a bad day, or did you have the bad day? I've seen it where someone will set up with bad bagging or a bit of wobble in the bench and poor accuracy will happen too. A loose action screw or gummed up lock-work can kill a group. My 300 win will pitch 10 in an inch at 100 as fast as I can pull the trigger, but if the front screw migrates 1/2 turn out, it's to pot with accuracy. Check for things like this before you scrap your load work.
     
  10. BML

    BML Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    97
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2009
    I've tried JLK's in 140 and 130. Also tried 123 AMAX.

    I've also tried RL17 with all those bullets.


    I'm beginning to realize that I did myself a huge disservice by starting with the "plan" that I had. I've burned a ton of money and probably 20% of my barrel life in a vicious unproductive circle.
     
  11. Lefty7mmstw

    Lefty7mmstw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,280
    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    try a sierra or hornady flat base. If the groups don't come in, the barrel probably won't give you what you want. I go to those two if the rifle is fussy. Hell, I've made my two longest kills with a 7rum and a 140 sierra fb. pro hunter. Not exactly the best bc wise. It will kill at over 700 yards; I've done it.
     
  12. rscott5028

    rscott5028 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,608
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    I haven't followed your load workup, but the biggest error most new reloaders make is to try too many variables and not do a methodical job. ...often jumping to conclusions because they had one tiny 3 shot group.

    It almost sounds to me like you need to scrap everything and start over with Dan's OCW method.

    I see no reason why h4831sc won't work. But, pick some known good set of components (e.g. 142 smk, lapua brass, h4831sc, cci br2 --or-- 140 berger, norma brass, h4350, fed 210m) and stick with the method.

    I also might add that I rarely find best accuracy with max loads. It almost sounds like you've pre-suppossed a velocity and are trying to get accuracy at your max load.

    The 140/142's are still very lethal at long range with an MV in the 2800's. If that's not ample, then you may want to consider a 7mm cartridge.

    You seem confident in your shooting ability, so I would assume that technique, paralax, scope, mounts, rest, etc... are not at issue here. But, that's not always the case.

    After 200+ rounds, do you have a specific load that you can say is consistently sub-MOA to 300+ yds?

    -- richard
     
  13. rscott5028

    rscott5028 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,608
    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2010
    I can't see how you've tried so many variables and only fired 200 shots.

    You need fewer variables and more thorough testing.

    JMHO
    richard
     
  14. Lefty7mmstw

    Lefty7mmstw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,280
    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    With a cal. that eats it's barrel up fast I often "shotgun" the load development. I'll Take three or four bullets and pair them with the best two or three powders and shoot them with a start charge. I usually take the best one or two and work them up fully. I need to know I've got the load within 100-200 shots when I've got a sub 1000 shot barrel life.