Terminal effectiveness

Discussion in 'Varmint Hunting' started by Gary Morgan, Oct 2, 2007.

  1. Gary Morgan

    Gary Morgan Well-Known Member

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    I am having great luck with the 70 gr. VLD and 95 gr. VLD Bergers on the target. I am going prairie dog hunting in Texas the middle of October. What kind of terminal performance can I expect on dogs with these bullets? I have two guns shooting these bullets in the 1s. Thanks for your response.
     
  2. jwp475

    jwp475 Well-Known Member

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    You will kill lots of dogs with your combo.........
     

  3. Gary Morgan

    Gary Morgan Well-Known Member

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    terminal effect

    Thanks for the confidence booster, JWP, but can you enlighten me a little bit with your experience?
     
  4. Patriot44

    Patriot44 Well-Known Member

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    Gary, First of all what cartridge are you using. The bullets you have mentioned are excellent bullets and they will work on varmints. If your going to be shooting past 600 yards, I would stick with the bullets you mentioned.

    I am a big varmint hunter myself, and I like to use the V-max and Ballistic Tip bullets for varmint hunting. They really take the varmints down quickly and provide the red mist factor. They are also much cheaper too. However, most of these bullets don't have the BC of the bullets you are currently shooting. It also depends on what type of area your shooting in. If your in Pdog country, I am guessing you have to deal with lots of wind, so the high BC bullets, like the ones you have mentioned, might be the way to go.

    However, if you have a good ballistics chart and you are good at reading the conditions, you can get away with using the V-Max and Ballistic Tip bullets. Some of the plastic tip bullets have some pretty decent BC. I use the 87grn V-Max, in my 6BR, and it has a BC of .400. I have had pretty good luck with this bullet out to 600 yards. I am only pushing it at around 3100fps in my 6BR, however, if you shoot this bullet out of a 6MM AI, 243 AI, or 6x284, you can push it much faster and really reach out with some really good kill power.

    I guess it depends on what you want to do with the rifle, however, it sounds like you have a really good set up already.
     
  5. Gary Morgan

    Gary Morgan Well-Known Member

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    terminal effect

    Patriot, thanks for your input. I am shooting the 70 VLD out of a 22/6mm Remington at 3644 FPS. This is a brand-new barrel and has only seen range time and no varmint hunting time yet. The 95 grain VLD is being used in a 6x284 and will be in the 3500 to 3600 FPS range.

    In the past, I have also used the 87 gr. V-Max and grew to love its splat factor. I got a PD at 1,020 yards last May with it, but this is getting pretty close to the outside limit of range for it. It was surprising to me how well it worked at that range in terms of terminal effect. It knocked the PD over the top of the hole and four feet back. I tried shooting it at 1300 yds or so, and the accuracy really dropped off with it. I was launching it at 3600 FPS out of the 6x284. My Sierra ballistics progam shows that the Berger 95 VLD should be a pretty good step up with a BC of 512.

    My biggest question was that the Bergers have such a small meplat area I wasn't sure they would do anything but drill small holes. What has been your experience with the Bergers on small animals like PDS?
     
  6. CatShooter

    CatShooter Well-Known Member

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    I think you will poke little holes in them.

    PDs don't offer much resistance to bullets, and at that range (and closer) they might wander off and die in the holes.

    I have spent about 50-60 days on Dog towns in my life, and I have found that long needle bullets are disappointing.

    As to the wind factor - at "X" range and "Y" wind conditions, say bullet "A" gives 54 inches of drift, and bullet "B" gives 68 inches of drift.

    Does it make any difference?? NO! You have a target that is 4" wide and you can't judge 54 inches with a +/- error of 2 inches in the field, so all the BC in the world won't help you. You might as well be guessing.

    I will offer my experiences.

    I found that the bigger the cartridge was, the the lower the hit ratio of PDs/Rounds fired was.

    You need to see your hits, and so if you can't see the dust on a miss, you can't hit the little buggers on the next round.

    Don't worry about the wind - set up your kit on the upwind side of the town so the wind is at your back. Put up a 3 or 4 foot stick with a 12" piece of light string attached to the top... it will point in the direction of the wind - shoot the dogs that the string points to. As the wind varies, just shoot the dogs that the string points to, and you will NEVER have wind drift.

    I would suggest V-Maxs - 60's in the 22/6mm and 75's or 87s in the 6-284.

    On my last trip out on dog towns, I took dogs at 700 to 850 yds routinely with a .222 Mag benchrest grade rifle once I was set up - I used an optical rangefinder (Wild), which is much more accurate over the flat dog towns than a laser.

    Just my experence...

    Good luck and shoot a few for me!
    .
     
  7. Gary Morgan

    Gary Morgan Well-Known Member

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    terminal effect

    Thanks, Catshooter, for your info. I've been shooting PDs for 35 years, and my experience pretty much is like yours. Up until the last two or three years, I have always been a guy who shot out to about 400 yards and then moved on to greener pastures. Recently I have become interested in making the longer shots as opposed to mass anihilation. After three or four days, all that gore gets a little tiresome. I made the VHA 1,000-yard club in May, and I'd like to reach 1,500 yards sometime. I think I'm going to have to get the 6.5x284 out for that. I went to the range today with the 6x284 and the 95-grain Bergers. It shot some really good groups at 100 yards: .212, .210, .367, .377, but the only load that had good repeatability was the lower node, 52 grs. of 4831SC. 55 grs. shot a .210 group, but when I tried to repeat it, it shot a .820. My Oehler didn't work today for some reason, so I don't have any velocities to quote. It went in the box last time working and came out of the box this time not working, even a new battery didn't revive it. Anyway, I think I'm just going to concentrate on dogs from 50 yards to 800 yards this trip, and maybe next time I'll have my long range game in order.
     
  8. Patriot44

    Patriot44 Well-Known Member

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    Catshooter, good info. I to like to use the V-Max and Ballistic Tip bullets for varminting out to 1000 yards. If I shoot past the 1000 yard mark, I will switch to the higher BC bullets.

    I originally used the 95grn Bergers out of my 6x284, however, they were poking holes right through the squirrels I was shooting at. I decided to switch to the 75grn V-Max. The 75grn V-Max was a better bullet for kill power. I have used this bullet all the way out to 1000 yards with good results, however, I did have to adjust for the wind a bit more compared to the 95grn Berger.

    There was a pretty good write up about a gunsmith who builds varmint rifles based off the 300 WSM cartridge using the 125grn Ballistic Tip. He is pushing the 125grn BT at 4000+fps in his custom set ups with a 1-15 twist barrel. You can find the write up on 6mmbr.com under the accurateshooter.com page. This looks like it would be a pretty impressive set up for varmint hunting out to 1000 yards.

    If your goal is to shoot past a 1000 yards, the higher BC bullets are the only way to go. If your goal is to shoot under a 1000 yards, the V-Max and Ballistic Tip bullets will work.

    P44
     
  9. CatShooter

    CatShooter Well-Known Member

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    P-44...

    I know that gunsmith - Richard Franklin, down in Virginia - I told him his DVD sucked and showed him my bonafides, (I built the rifle, and shot the group):

    http://www.snipercountry.com/images/Pablito-M24-0.46-target.jpg

    ... and he invited me to come down and whack some woodies with him next July.

    The problem with rifles like the ones he makes, is that they weigh 24 pounds (bad), they are unpleasant to shoot, noise wise (BAD), and cost a fortune to shoot, as in ~$1.50 a shot (VERY BAD)... not to mention the price (which I won't mention, cuz you'll fall off the chair).

    He builds them for a special type of shooting, in a specific area (mid Atlantic, east coast farm country).


    -

    I have pretty much stopped using "match" bullets on varmints. Too many of them just poke through the critter and leave it to bleed to death at the bottom of the hole.

    My current choices are V-Maxs and BlitzKings. They might give up 0.05" to 0.10" in group size... but in the field, off of a bipod or the hood of a Jeep, you can't squeeze that last 0.05" out of it (accuracy wise) anyway, and the V-Maxs and BK's come apart so fast, they literally explode the critters. Much more explosive than the BT's.

    I recently bought a .264 Winchester Mag, Remington Sendero-II for a varmint rifle. I load it with 95 gr. V-Maxs at 3750 fps - it is to be used for very long range feral dogs, and coyotes (at 800 to 1,000+ yds).

    I had been using large 190 gr. match bullets in a 300 WM for it, but the match bullets did a poor job on 30 to 50 pound dogs.

    .
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2007
  10. Patriot44

    Patriot44 Well-Known Member

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    Catshooter, your new varmint rig sounds pretty good. The 95grn V-Max, at 3750fps, should be devastating on varmints and dogs. Sounds like your rig will be a good varmint rig for shots out to 1000 yards with 95grn V-Max.

    I read the "What a Joke" post that talked about Richards 300 WSM Varminter. WOW, I don't think I will get involved with that one. I think what Richard was trying to show on his target that stated ".162 at 100 yards equals 1.62 at 1000 yards, was that if conditions were perfect it would be possiable. However, as we all know, conditions are never perfect. I think Richard was just showing the accuracy potential in perfect conditions. He sure was crititzed for putting his target in the article.

    I think his 300 WSM Varminter would be a fun varmint rig to have, but I don't have the $$$ to build something that specialized. Maybe one day when I hit the lotto. I hope that "Wildcat" posts the results of his build. It sounded like he is having one of Richards 300 WSM Varminters built. Wildcat, if your reading this, please give us the results when your 300 WSM project is completed. I know you said you would not post again, but, I would really like to hear about it and how it performs.

    I like the V-max and Ballistic tip bullets for varmint hunting, so I am thinking it goes against the norm on this site to use these bullets. I like the VLD bullets too, but I like using the plastic tip bullets for varminting out to 1000 yards.

    Your 264 Win sounds like it will be a varmint buster for sure. Keep us informed on how the accuracy is with 95grn V-Max.

    P44
     
  11. wildcat

    wildcat Well-Known Member

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    P44, I promised that I would post the results on how the 300 WSM Varminter performes. I will keep that promise, and I will let everyone know how it peformes.

    Wildcat
     
  12. Patriot44

    Patriot44 Well-Known Member

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    Wildcat, I am glad to hear you will be posting the results. I am one who thinks your new 300 WSM Varminter rig will be an awesome varmint rifle. I look forward to hearing how it performes.

    I know you said you would not post on this site again. I hope you change your mind and come back.

    P44
     
  13. LWolken

    LWolken Well-Known Member

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    VLD's

    My experience with the berger bullets in 6mm specifically the 95 gr VLD and 105gr VLD is that they will shoot great groups but left me frustrated in the field when direct hits tossed them only to get back up and run into their hole. Time after time. This was also the case with the 107 gr matchking The next year I switched to the 105gr Amax and they were awesome. Good reliable expansion up to 600yds. If you are building a 6mm varmint rig it is the only VLD bullet to build around in my opinion. In 22 cal bullets I've been shooting the 50gr Vmax. It just seems to offer the best of both worlds in terms of BC, speed and smack down at ranges up to 400-500. I use it in both a 223 and 22-250. The 6mm is a 243 ack 1-9" twist. I have been prairie dog hunting the pan handle of Texas once every year for the past four years. It is the only hunt I pay to go on each year.

    Sincerely,

    Lance Wolken
     
  14. Patriot44

    Patriot44 Well-Known Member

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    LWolken, I have had the same problem with VLD type bullets punching holes in the varmints aswell. I use Nosler Ballistic Tips and V-Max bullets for varminting out to 1000 yards. When I shoot past the 1000 yard mark, I will switch to the VLD's.

    There is a great article on 6mmBR.com about Richard Franklins 300 WSM Varminter. He is getting 4000+fps with the 125grn Ballistic tip (.366 BC) and he is getting excellent accuracy. He is using a custom action, Nesika or BAT, with a 1-15 twist barrel to reach these velocities. This is a specialized varmint rifle with that bullet and twist rate. I normal factory 300 WSM could never come close to these velocities. It look like an excellent varmint set up.

    Wildcat is having Richard build a 300 WSM Varminter. He is going to report back on how it performes as soon as he receives it. I am looking forward to viewing the results.

    P44