Tac-Ops rifle's

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Ripper, Sep 4, 2010.

  1. Ripper

    Ripper Well-Known Member

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    I've never owned or shot one of these rifle's but the owner's swear up and down on their accuracy. The company guarentee's .25 moa "or better" with the sale of any of their rifle's. I always hear "nobody can shoot that good" but they are constantly posting their shot result's around different website's such as Sniper Central and Sniper's Hide.

    I am looking at picture's they are posting that show signifigantly less than .25 moa @ 100 yds... From what I am reading at these two website's is that the owner and smith Mike Rosigno is saying he puts a lot more time and effort in to his build than other gunsmith's.

    According to some he has "certain specification's" with how he order's his barrel's and reamer's thus making his rifle's so much more accurate than the next rifle.

    Asked around about the price's and they are really spendy. Does anyone have any information on these rifle's?

    Thanks,
    -RiP
     
  2. J E Custom

    J E Custom Well-Known Member

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    !/4 MOA is doable but it would probably come with specific loads worked up by them to
    perform to this level which would increase the price considerably.

    As to one smith doing better work than everyone else ? Perfect is perfect no matter who
    does it and there are a few on this site that I would have to say can do as well as anyone.

    Most Custom rifles are capable of 1/4 MOA but it is hard to guarantee this level of accuracy
    on every rifle because of the barrels. even though you have a barrel with extremely close
    tolerances they will not all shoot to the same level.

    A lot of bench rest shooters will build using many barrels and sometimes find a "Hummer"
    that shoots better than anything that they have, even though they have the same loads,
    stocks,ETC.

    A consistant 1/2 MOA hunting rifle is a thing of wonder and a 1/4 MOA hunting rifle is not
    as easy a just buying one, they require load development work and range time plus a
    good smith to perform at this level.

    Claims are easy to make ,but proof if hard. 'Beware of greeks bearing gifts' !!!!!

    Any good gunsmith should be able to produce a 1/4 MOA rifle given enough time and money
    to work up load for it. but you can buy a rifle that is just as good and spend the time tuning
    the ammo for a lot less money.

    Most well made rifles will out perform most shooters and they will never realizes the true
    potential of the rifle.

    Buy what you wan't but don't expect to much because there is no magic rifle that can be
    bought that will shoot one hole every time. Just once in a while one ends up with one
    and it is the exception.

    This is just an opinion based on over 50 years of experience so take it for what it's worth.

    J E CUSTOM
     

  3. Joel Russo

    Joel Russo Official LRH Sponsor

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    Darn you J E... you took the words out of my mouth once again...

    Ripper... it's your money, spend it where you want, but beware of the guarantee....

    Any custom riflesmith worth a darn can build a rifle capable of 1/4 moa accuracy at 100 yards, but that rifle is not necessarily a 1/4 moa rifle.....lightbulb
     
  4. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    I agree with JE

    I think it's possible to out gun-build others though.
    Anyone can screw benchrest pieces together and call it custom. With obvious combinations, the outcome is almost certain to fall within an acceptable band, for limited use, with a well tuned load.
    The typical point blank BR gun.. Anyone of us could cut checks for a turn-key 30br, <1/4moa to 300yds, purpose built gun(in passion pink).

    But if a gunbuilder reverse engineers some USEFUL combination that happened to work really well, he might be able to consistently reproduce it. This is Cooper, GA Precision, etc.
    With a great deal of testing, a gunbuilder might perfect a special combination(like a field carry gun that's accurate). I don't know that any are still alive!

    But this is just what gunbuilders should do:
    Build a gun to a specific set of standards. Validate the gun's actual performance. Auction it off based on that actual capability. You buy the system: the gun, dies, and load info.
    But I've yet to see anyone do this.

    You didn't say which Tac-Ops model, but I've heard the Tangos make owners happy.
    It has a very short barrel, and I'm sure it's twist limits the ammo to just that recommended.
    If the 1/4moa 'qualifiers' were laid all out in view, things would not appear so mystical..
    There may very well be something proprietary to their barrel purchase orders. Tac-Ops may have bluprinted a specific barrel(a hummer), and they may be willing to pay a ton to get them exactly that way. Same everything, inside and out. Wish this were an option for the rest of us.
    I for one would certainly pay 4-5x more for a barrel that was verified to meet a hummer blueprint right up front, provided it had any real world use.

    What I have a hard time believing though, is that a gun could be implied so accurate with off the shelf Federal factory ammo, and a 2.5# trigger. I would make Tac-Ops prove it on paper by gun serial number, and ammo lot number, before cutting any checks.
    I would also want reload info worked up that performs so well, because you cannot count on factory ammo consistency from store to store. That is, if the gun is very expensive.

    How much do they ask for their guns?
     
  5. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    There are many angles(qualifiers) to this as well.
    For one, their definition of 'accuracy', might not mean single cold barrel shot placement to center of mark, to distances of intended use. And this is all that should matter at this forum.

    It might mean grouping(3 or 5sht) to 100yds, off a rifle evaluator/ clamped rest, remote fired. This might be inferred by validating only ~50yd grouping in an indoor range and doubling it (AlaCooper).
    It might mean 'typical' performance, if your's doesn't, go through the hassle to prove it & exchange for another, till you get what you pay for or refund(American 'gunsmith').
     
  6. JeffVN

    JeffVN Well-Known Member

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    deleted
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2010
  7. Ripper

    Ripper Well-Known Member

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    That's just the thing, is the guarentee is with factory ammo. They guarentee their accuracy using Blackhills and Federal. As far as blueprinting I have no idea if they are doing that... All I know is that his barrel's and reamer's are built to a certain standard before shipment.

    As far as buying from Tac-Op's; not interested in a LEO rifle at all. That's all they are suited for. The chambering is way to tight and risky to be used in the field IMO. Has anyone seen one of these in a competition or anything?

    I'm more or less wondering why I don't hear about these more often if they are "so much better stated by owner's".

    -RiP
     
  8. johnnyk

    johnnyk Well-Known Member

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    If you do some reasearch on this company (Google) there are some articles that you can read up on them. They tell the whole procedure for building their rifles. They have their reamers, and thus their chamber, made for the Black Hills and Federal ammo. Hence the guarantee. Any good smith can do that, but it limits the role of the rifle. I imagine the majority of their customers are law enforcement types, so no reloads, just factory fodder for duty purposes.
    Not taking anything away from this company as they fill a niche. If you're only going to shoot one bullet, or type of bullet, then let them have your money. One of the high-end smiths on this forum can do the same thing and probably cheaper. Just My Opinion. JohnnyK.
     
  9. alexrem700

    alexrem700 New Member

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    Probably digging up an old article but the information in this article is dreadful. The Tactical Operations (Tac Ops) rifles are service rifles used in combination with military and law enforcement including LA SEB. These rifles are built and guaranteed .25 MOA with factory ammunition but can shoot better with hand loads. These rifles use a Remington 700 action because they are the safest and most trusted option for duty rifles. Mike at Tac Ops will ship your rifle to you with a target that he shot himself personally which typically is .10 or less MOA. I have seen and there are pictures of 0.06! And to think that your basic gun smith can build these rifles to the same quality as Mike does... well they have to know exactly how he does it and I guarantee they do not build it anywhere near the tolerances Mike R. builds them. Most gun smiths will attempt to "copy" his builds and talk so much crap about them but they never guarantee .25" MOA. His rifles are featured over and over again especially in SWAT magazine. They are far superior. Unless you have shot one or you own one you really can't talk crap about them or make any assumptions. I am purchasing a Delta 51 from Tac Ops and I have shot a GAP rifle, and a McMillan rifle and I chose Tac Ops.

    The thing is everyone says that they are just bench rifles you couldn't be more wrong. Granted they are not competition rifles and there are purpose built competition bench rest rifles out there that will shoot better groups, these rifles are simply made to be the best duty rifles out there. Over and over again owners of these guns shoot sub .25" MOA again and again. I would like to see a $1500 custom rifle with factory ammo do that. It would take one hell of a shooter.

    "As far as buying from Tac-Op's; not interested in a LEO rifle at all. That's all they are suited for. The chambering is way to tight and risky to be used in the field IMO. Has anyone seen one of these in a competition or anything?

    I'm more or less wondering why I don't hear about these more often if they are "so much better stated by owner's"."

    - The tolerances are not dangerous... they are used every day and in life threatening situations. Not many people know about them because they are a very expensive custom rifle and most people in the Tactical world DO KNOW about them and dream of owning them ESPECIALLY in law enforcement.

    A lot of the techs are MIT graduates... they are not just your typical gun smiths. The just don't lap lugs and square the face. Read this from Sniper Central which explains in really good detail on how they blueprint and true their actions. They just don't square the bolt... it's way more involved. There's so much more that I can't properly explain just read this post:

    SniperCentral - View topic - Tactical Operations Response (UPDATE - 1/22/08)

    It goes into great detail as to the tolerances that make a Tac Ops rifle different than your typical custom rifle builder.

    As for:
    "!/4 MOA is doable but it would probably come with specific loads worked up by them to
    perform to this level which would increase the price considerably.

    As to one smith doing better work than everyone else ? Perfect is perfect no matter who
    does it and there are a few on this site that I would have to say can do as well as anyone.

    Most Custom rifles are capable of 1/4 MOA but it is hard to guarantee this level of accuracy
    on every rifle because of the barrels. even though you have a barrel with extremely close
    tolerances they will not all shoot to the same level.

    A lot of bench rest shooters will build using many barrels and sometimes find a "Hummer"
    that shoots better than anything that they have, even though they have the same loads,
    stocks,ETC.

    A consistant 1/2 MOA hunting rifle is a thing of wonder and a 1/4 MOA hunting rifle is not
    as easy a just buying one, they require load development work and range time plus a
    good smith to perform at this level.

    Claims are easy to make ,but proof if hard. 'Beware of greeks bearing gifts' !!!!!

    Any good gunsmith should be able to produce a 1/4 MOA rifle given enough time and money
    to work up load for it. but you can buy a rifle that is just as good and spend the time tuning
    the ammo for a lot less money.

    Most well made rifles will out perform most shooters and they will never realizes the true
    potential of the rifle.

    Buy what you wan't but don't expect to much because there is no magic rifle that can be
    bought that will shoot one hole every time. Just once in a while one ends up with one
    and it is the exception.

    This is just an opinion based on over 50 years of experience so take it for what it's worth.

    J E CUSTOM "

    - The proof is that the best SWAT team in the United States uses their Tango 51 rifle... proof is in the pudding. This is the situation where gun smith and customs shops take offense to what Tac Ops can do with their rifles. Especially when they have a lot of experience in what they do. Because they can't do it no one else can. With the knowledge and engineering it is capable. These rifles are not just bench rifles, I am saying it again. These rifles are used by law enforcement and military and used every day. At this point pictures won't be good enough because then everyone will say well they were only 50 yards away not 110 yards. Over at sniper central every new owner posts pictures of their new Tac Ops and with every new Tac Ops rifle they come with a cardboard target from 100 to 110 yards away and it's always sub .25 MOA, typically I see 0.10 or less MOA on the cardboard targets from 100-110 yards away.

    Before you talk crap about a rifle... shoot one yourself before you say it's impossible or that you have 50 years experience and it can't be done. They use factory ammo and guarantee it to shoot .25 MOA. It does just that. They have trade secrets, especially in their Remington 700 action... the tolerances are so tight, within .001 or less. If anyone is in the Austin area... you can shoot my Delta 51 if you want proof when I get it. I have no problem with that and proof will simply be in your hands. I have a modified SPS Varmint and replacing the stock and trigger and it shoots on average .6 MOA and that's with a Weaver Grand Slam at 100 yards. Even though the Tac Ops rifles CAN shoot .25 MOA it's all up to the shooter. A good shooter can take a Tac Ops and shoot sub .25 MOA with Federal Gold Medal 168 BHTP.

    If you still have bad things to say after reading the Sniper Central article and bash the rifle without shooting it or have any experience with it, or say crap with such lack of knowledge... well I can only see it as jealousy or delusion.
     
  10. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    alexrem700, did you just imply that you do not even have one?
    That your own personal experience amounts to some other POS .6moa gun?
    Isn't the average use for LE sniping close to ~80yds?
    Do you realize this is a long range hunting site, and NOT a tactical site?
     
  11. Stormrider

    Stormrider Well-Known Member

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    I will say that I have shot a Tac Ops rifle and that it was everything that Mike claimed it to be. I have several friends that own Tac Ops rifles. I have also seen shooters that absolutely wouldn't believe anyone's experiences with Tac Ops and were very vehement about it not being possible change their tune as soon as they got one. They are every bit as good as they say they are.
     
  12. midnightmalloy

    midnightmalloy Well-Known Member

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    How much do one of these run? I looked but couldnt find a price.
     
  13. Stormrider

    Stormrider Well-Known Member

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    Since they are all individually made to what the customer wants,You need to call Mike and talk to him.