Sorry if this Starts another Argument

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by lerch, Jul 15, 2005.

  1. lerch

    lerch <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    I know we have all argued over whether or not we want a bullet to exit a animal or not but I have to tell you all about the debate I just got in here in my shop. A friend of my families and local deputy sheriff sniper came in our shop and we bagan talking about ballistics. After a while he begins arguing that he doens't believe in knock down power of bullets. He says that if a bullet actually had enough power to stop or knockover a animal the gun would do the same thing to the person shooting it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    Now I am not a genious, hell half the time I can't even spell right, but I have always been brought up to believe that a bullet carries a certain amount of energy with it and deposits this energy into the object that causes it to stop.

    He did say that bullet does have forward inertia but he said that it doesn't actually do anything to game animals.
    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    now I am not wanting to start another arguement whether or not we want a bullet to stop in a animal or exit but please tell me if what he was saying is correct but I just don't understand it.
     
  2. Skinny Shooter

    Skinny Shooter Well-Known Member

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    Lerch, I prefer to explode my groundhogs whenever possible but I'll settle for shots that don't exit and result in DRT (dead right there) kills. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
    I think that knockdown theory is all proportionate to the game and caliber being used and your friend is partly correct. You or I as a shooter are braced for the recoil of a gun but an animal is caught off guard when a bullet slams into it.
    Groundhogs get flipped head over tail with a 308 or 243 when hit just right.
    My one and only deer was taken with a 75 caliber Brown Bess musket at 29 paces. The lead ball knocked the doe off of her feet. Never would have believed it if it hadn't of happened to me. The musket with a 110gr charge of FFg only kicks like a 12ga with slugs.
    It would be nice to have a bullet that dumps all its energy into a deer with maximum damage and doesn't exit but don't think that's always possible. If the bullet does punch through while doing much damage then you've got an extra hole for the animal to bleed from.

    Am interested in the replies you're going to get here.
    Was your friend by chance referring to Hollywood movies where the bad guy gets blown backwards a few feet when hit with gunfire or was the discussion centered on wild game?
    Btw, that lead ball did exit on the doe and had shot her just behind the shoulder. And then she tried to get back up. From now on while using a flinter, my shot will be for the shoulders and they aren't going anywhere.
     

  3. bailey1474

    bailey1474 <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    Since I was also there for the argument, I'll put in my 2 cents.

    What he really went into were terminal ballistics. He stated that penetration was the most important factor followed by "permanent wound channel diameter." He said that the bullet's energy had very little if any shock value.

    I stayed out of it as long as I could but eventually, had to get envolved. I'll agree that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction, but I'm not buying this "no shock" idea. If a bullet goes from 2500fps to 500 fps in the width of a deer, the energy that the bullet lost went into the deer. Obviously the greater the speed lost the more energy that is tranfered.

    I agree to a point on the would channel, but he stated that the temporary wound channel that is opened by the shock means nothing. If this is true, then why will you see a large blood shot or bruised area all the way around the "permanent" wound channel. I don't know about you, but I would say a bruise is tissue damage. Especially when it's in the lungs.

    That'll be enough from me. I'm starting to get all fired up again /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif!!
     
  4. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I know we have all argued over whether or not we want a bullet to exit a animal or not but I have to tell you all about the debate I just got in here in my shop. A friend of my families and local deputy sheriff sniper came in our shop and we bagan talking about ballistics. After a while he begins arguing that he doens't believe in knock down power of bullets. He says that if a bullet actually had enough power to stop or knockover a animal the gun would do the same thing to the person shooting it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    Now I am not a genious, hell half the time I can't even spell right, but I have always been brought up to believe that a bullet carries a certain amount of energy with it and deposits this energy into the object that causes it to stop.

    He did say that bullet does have forward inertia but he said that it doesn't actually do anything to game animals.
    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif

    now I am not wanting to start another arguement whether or not we want a bullet to stop in a animal or exit but please tell me if what he was saying is correct but I just don't understand it.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    Tough to argue over facts...but I'm sure comeone will try /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

    Newtons Third LAW of Motion:
    "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction."

    Theoretically if your rifle weighed 200gns, and you shot a 200gn bullet, the rifle would depart oppositely at the same speed.

    JB
     
  5. lerch

    lerch <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    I understand the theory of an equal force being applied backwards into the rifle and shooter as is applied to the bullet. What i cannot follow is the idea that a bullet possess no knockdown power. If a bullet is driven forward with enough energy to penetrate a animal and expand to twice its size wouldn't we call this knockdown power since that enrgy is also transfered into the animal. I know that a bullet is not going to cause a deer or elk to pick up off the ground and fly back 10 feet but I do think that it is unarguable that a bullet does transfer a severe concussive force to a animal upon impact and while penetrating.

    Steve
     
  6. Skinny Shooter

    Skinny Shooter Well-Known Member

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    When my hollowpoints expand in a groundhog, the shock of that violent expansion often times makes the insides a bit mushy. I think the high velocity round compresses the fluid and tissues to a devastating effect.
     
  7. 4ked Horn

    4ked Horn Writers Guild

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    If I understand what the cop is saying he is correct. A bullet will NOT throw a man over backwards or knock him through a glass window as seen in the movies. I saw video of the owner of Second Chance body armor get hit full in the chest with several rounds from a .308 at a distance of about 6 feet. He stood on one foot through the entire demonstration. His armor absorbed all the energy of the bullet. Any large movements from a target this big, compared to the bullet, come from some muscle movement weather voluntary or not. A bullet with 2000 foot/pounds of energy will NOT move a 200 pound sack of rice 10 feet.

    Hitting a rock chuck with a .300 is more like hitting a person with a beer can at 2900 fps. This would indeed cause a major movement and could result in a hydrostatic shock sufficient to start bursting tissues (causing liftoff). A full soda can hit with a high velocity .22 will jump off the deck. This is because the pressure applied to the side of the can is instantly transfered to all sides of the can due to the unwillingness of liquids to compress. Same for the rockchucks 95% liquid make up.

    Equal and opposite actions still hold true in either case.
     
  8. dakor

    dakor Well-Known Member

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    A bullet kills by shock not by blood loss. Yes FTLBS means something take a 308 Win and a 300 Mag and shoot a animal with the same bullet at the same range and you will see a difference between the two. Here is a simple test to prove a lot of energy is transfered when a bullet strikes. Take two 1 gallon milk jugs and fill them with water. Put them at 50 yards. Now shoot one with a 22LR and shoot the other with a 223 or 22-250 and then look at the results. If you also look at the difference between a bullet wound and a wound from a broadhead you can really tell energy from a bullet is transfered and a lot of it. With a bullet wound there is blood shot meat and with a broadhead there is nothing the meat stays the same color as the rest of the animal there is just a hole going through it. Now about his statement about if a gun had that much energy it would knock the person over shooting it. Now I really think he was stretching things. When a bullet is fired it's energy is from the velocity it is going not the recoil the rifle produces.
     
  9. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    Skinny -- fluids dont compress...but that is what causes little critters to explode

    i bet if you hit a deer lengthwise with a 20MM V-max it would explode too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

    In my mind, the fluids act as a force multiplier

    JB
     
  10. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a combination shock and subsequent blood loss. I seen a philippine student demonstrator shot point blank in the chest accidently by a cop with 12ga 00Buck. Blew his lungs out of his back. He fell towards the shot, hitting the muzzle before the ground. Several seconds later he passed out. By then there was a trail of his blood 10ft down the street.
    I've hit many woodchucks with 40Vmax and watched them tip over without a twitch. But they weren't dead yet. Just shocked into instant unconciousness. They bled to death before waking is all.
    Enough shock will knock out the target. Leaving only the dying.
     
  11. Jimm

    Jimm Writers Guild

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    Hey , can I play too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
    As I read the post it seems to me that the thing he did'nt believe in was " knockdown power of bullets". One personal ekperience seems to say otherwise , I shot a deer (about 135 lbs ) with a 54 cal. using 500 gr. pure lead hphb bullet, 100grs. blackpowder(kicks so hard it bruises my cheek with one shot.Distance was about 60 yds . th

    The bullet hit center of the spine and the guys said( too much smoke for me to see ) it rotated her like she was on a rotiserrie.
    The beer can reference was a good point .How heavy the bullet and how heavy the target? these must be answered to determine if there is " knockdown power" or not.
    I expect that a 5or 600 gr. bullet that will expand greatly making impact on a dense portion of the target would move the target quite a lot (knock it down )
     
  12. lerch

    lerch <strong>SPONSOR</strong>

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    I thank you all for your opinions and information. My real point of this post is to dispute the presence of knockdown/stopping power. THe deputy does not believe in it and I put all my faith in trusting it. What I am hoping is that you all will either provide me with the information to prove my case to him or prove me wrong.

    Thankyou
     
  13. jb1000br

    jb1000br Well-Known Member

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    [ QUOTE ]
    I thank you all for your opinions and information. My real point of this post is to dispute the presence of knockdown/stopping power. THe deputy does not believe in it and I put all my faith in trusting it. What I am hoping is that you all will either provide me with the information to prove my case to him or prove me wrong.

    Thankyou

    [/ QUOTE ]

    You need to watch the Mythbusters Episode where they shoot a dead pig to try to knock it backwards -- was NO Hollyweird reaction when shot.

    JB
     
  14. 4ked Horn

    4ked Horn Writers Guild

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    [ QUOTE ]
    Now about his statement about if a gun had that much energy it would knock the person over shooting it. Now I really think he was stretching things. When a bullet is fired it's energy is from the velocity it is going not the recoil the rifle produces.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    The laws of equal and opposite are still true in this example. If the bullet had the energy to throw a deer backwards it would also have the energy to throw the shooter backwards. The reason a bullet does so much forward damage is because of the disparity of momentum and surface area. the two sides of the equasion are a 150 grain bullet not in motion and a 35,000 grain gun not in motion. Then there is the bullets frontal surface that is about 1 "1/4 inch square" and the recoil pad that is about 50 "1/4 inch squares". This is why the bullet flies so far so fast and penetrates the target and the rifle kicks but does not penetrate the shooters shoulder.

    I disagree with what you said about shock killing an animal and not blood loss (it has to be a combination of both) but I don't think the cop was talking about that. The reference was to "knock down power" and the shooter experiencing the same energy.