SO called experts talking about LONG RANGE SHOOTING....

[Slopeshunter]

Slopeshunter,

Best way to figure your max range is to get a quality ballistic program. One that will let you account for altitude, Bar pressure, humidy, temp and wind speed.

Then you need an accurate muzzle velocity average and a reliable BC value for your bullet. Plug in all your numbers and then look where your bullet velocity drops below 1100 fps. This is not exactly the speed of sound. This is a value that changes with environmental conditions, espeically altitude but 1100 fps is a decent place to start.

Find out where this is, for example it is 1650 yards. Set up a target at 1600 yards and see if you can get good consistant groups representitive of what the rifle will do. Anything under 1 moa at this range is what I would call predictable bullet impacts.

If you get consistant accuracy, step back 200 yards and check. If your bullet drops out of super sonic velocity in this window, you will see a noticable drop in bullet impact predictablility. Many times, you will have total accuracy lose.

As far as this being Longrangehunting.com, I fully agree, but it never hurts to know the max range of your particular rifle and in the case of my business, I want to push those limits and extend the predictable range of our rifles as far as possible. I would never shoot at big game at 3000 yards, hell not even 2000 yards but my job is to push and move the limits. As of right now, 3800 yards is not practical and we are working with some of the most extreme ballistic performance on the planet concerning shoulder fired conventional rifles.

To say this is possible to the average shooter is simply a practice that eventually will cause the new shooter to get discouraged and possibly give up on the sport.

That is my only point. I agree totally, being able to put that first shot on the money is the determining factor as to what max range you are capable of shooting to. That is concerning hunting, I am talking mostly about shear max performance in this instance.

Kirby Allen(50)

Thanks for the reply Kirby!

 

[shootinfool]

I too am sick of people that know nothing about the making long shots telling others how easy it is. I am no shooter like has been mentioned. In fact my longest shots on targets are only 1250 and to me that is a long ways out there. All the hype has some people that really have no buisness shooting long distance trying shots on game that they have not even attempted on targets because they hear that it is really easy to do. There is more to it than buying a gun and a scope with the target turrets and going out and clicking the scope up and being dead on. Like was mentioned there could be cross winds, are the winds full faced or only partial. Are you shooting at an angle up hill or down hill? What are the current weather conditions, humidity, baro readings, altitude, temp. Alot more than people realize goes into making a true long distance shot count the first time and not having to take 5-6 shots, wounding the animal, before you make the kill shot.

 

[JD338]

Kirby,

Tough fight for sure and you will end up being the bad guy.
The bigger problem is the wana be LRH kind of person that puts a long range scope on his deer rifle and prints off a drop chart and goes hunting. As you know, verifying the chart with actual data is paramont. There are likely to be a few that ignore this and go out and wound a few animals.
Thats where the bad image comes into play.

JD338

 

[hawkshaw59]

Yes being able to judge distance and figure wind then dial in the appropriate MOA takes lots of practice under different conditions. This only comes from practice and lots of it with a good teacher and spotter. You can do it on your own but it helps greatly to have someone who has been there and done that to mentor you along. Preferable someone who knows what they are doing. I am not a good judge of distance so I rely on my range finder. But still you need to know how to judge distance anyway because you never know when the rangefinder will crap out on you, or you forget it, or it could get damaged and not work.

I have Quickload and Quicktarget but have not mastered these for my best use of their capabilities. I already see how they can really help you in knowing how your round will fly.

 

[NYLES]

50,
Ill be happy with a whitetail at a K.......A few of us southerners still sit and scratch our heads at our visability even at 500 yards.....we get some serios mirage and haze down here! Ive seen the newbies shoot over a box at a legit size 500 yrd ram and never touch it...and this is off a competition type concrete bench at a known range....

Folks like you and GG would blow our minds down here, I understand where your coming from when people make something that hard sound so easy.

 

[britz]

Sorry to take your thread a bit off topic Kirby, but could someone tell me how does one determine at what range different calibres go subsonic? And does this range basically tell you the limits of that calibre?

Cheers.

Go to JBM clac or similar tradjectroy calculator and it will tell you the velocity at various ranges and probably the speed of sound at your altitude, 1200 ft is about 1111 fps.

 

[Eaglet]

Sorry to take your thread a bit off topic Kirby, but could someone tell me how does one determine at what range different calibres go subsonic? And does this range basically tell you the limits of that calibre?

Cheers.

What you have been told is right on the money, I just would like to show you how my program shows me the velocity at which it goes from supersonic (above the speed of sound) to subsonic (below the speed of sound). Remembering that depending of the altitud and the conditions the speed of sound Number changes. On the left, as you run the external ballistic program with all the needed data, in the velocity section gives you in black the supersonic and in red the subsonic. On the right hand side, in the analyzer section clicking on the tab for obtaing BC from velocities, there it also would tell you the Speed of sound from the data entered. You may find the speed of sound at any elevation for any set of atmospheric conditions. Good Luck!

 

[jwp475]

I use and Like the Nightforce Exball Program and believe that it is as good as any......

Nightforce Optics

 

[davewilson]

i don't know what's so hard about shooting at 3800. i regularly shoot groundhogs past 5k with my 22lr....then i wake up, SSS, and off to work i go.

come on Kirby, we need a name. this guy doesn't deserve our business.

 

[Huntinfool]

Yeah Kirb

Might as well tell us I mean after all it's in a magazine right! It's public knowledge!

Who is it????

Chuck

 

[Mayhem338]

Hey guys why dont we get this guy to put on a shooting clinic? Then when we show up with our 338AM and 375AM's we can shoot for money ))

Mayhem

 

[Fiftydriver]

One thing I want to make certain is that when novice shooters read this post that they come away with the impression that shooting at long range is so hard and involved that it is not worth even trying. That is certainly not my intent and could not be farther from the truth.

I recently took a customer out to the range to test a new rifle I built for him. It was a nice 300 Wby built on a Lawton receiver, A-5 stock, heavy Lilja barrel. A pleasure of a rifle to shoot. We set the gong up at 1200 yards and this customer to be honest seemed a bit intimidated by the range as he had never even attempted a shot at this range before. Within a couple shots he was ringing the gong pretty regularly in a decent cross wind with his rifle.

I had also packed up my lightweight 338 AM and took it along for him to try out. We set her up and got him on the correct hold reference point for this range. Again, I think he was a bit imtimidated by the size of the 338 AM round and the relatively light rifle as under 18 lbs. His first shot landed about 20 yards short of the target.

I handed him another round and said, "now you know she will not kill you so just shoot it like any other rifle." A short while after the trigger broke on the second shot the lead smear appeared about 3" to the right and about 4" high of center on the gong. He was all smiles.

I handed him another round and this shot landed about 3" directly above the first shot. Only problem is that the shot impacted the gong just under the chain support and because the gong could not swing freely with this impact location, it ripped the gong right off the chain. Again he was all smiles.

Point being, In relatively good conditions, I could take anyone that has basic shooting skills and get them consistantly hitting a 2 moa gong at 1000 yards or more in just a matter of shots.

We are greatly dependant on equipment in this sport and it takes a fair amount of knowledge to make the equipment and also get it all adjusted, tweaked and tuned so that everything is working in unison such as rangefinder, drop chart and actual rifle trajectory. Then comes the hard part.

Judging field conditions. Most of this can be obtained accurately with a quality handheld instrument such as the Krestel line of intruments. Judging wind direction and speed over extreme range, thats a bit harder and in fact in some instances can be flat out impossible. For instance if your shooting from one ridge to another and there is no mirage or particles in the air to read, your basically in the dark as far as wind at mid range.

When it comes to wind judgement I am as novice as anyone and fully admit it. I can read horizontal wind pretty well, when it comes to up and down drafts, I am learning everyone I experience them to be honest!!!

Again, my point is this, to shoot at extreme range, you need specialized equipment and the knowledge to use it correctly. That said, it is not rocket science and anyone with a desire to invest in good equipment and practice can learn to be a very compitent long range shot.

When dealing with ranges past 2000 yards however, I just get tired of some writters saying its so easy because lets be honest, there are only a handful of rounds out there that can even provide consistant performance out to that range and out past 3000 yards, lets just say I am shooting about the most extreme performance round out there right now(RIGHT NOW!!) and much past 3000 yards your still pretty much tapped out.

3600 and 3800 yards, in my opinion flat *** luck and nothing else to even come close to a small target repeatedly.

as far as the author of the article, For professional reasons I do not want to mention his name but I will say he is very noticable in the world of the Varmint Hunter Association and their magazine. Again, he builds great rifles, that is not in question in anyway. Its his attitude or protrail of extreme range shooting that I personally feel may cause alot of frustration to new shooters and may result in them leaving the sport.

Kirby Allen(50)

 

[hitsthemark]

Try to look on the bright side

Which can be hard to do...BUT. The average masses read such an article and conclude that an hour at the range, a box of surplus ammo, and a few clicks of the scope will have them all ready to take down Trophy Bulls at 2000-3000 yards......The bright side? I doubt anyone needs fear that they will wound animals........they will run out of ammo or melt the barrel before they hit within twenty yards of them.

 

[chain]

I am very new at this sport. I recently moved from Mi to Co, here I have been able to shoot at ranges that I wasn't able to do at home. From participating on this board I have learned a ton of information, I also have learned that guys like Kirby and Shawn although I have never met them are damned straight shooters and I just don't mean with a rifle. I went to a shooting range last Sat and my buddy was messing around with his 45-70 trying to hit steel targets at 200 yds. Well it jst seemd natural to try and hit the 500 yd target. I did! WOW. Would I have tried a shot at an animal at that range, even with my 300 win ? No, but I feel I hit it due to the information I have gathered here. Since I have been visiting this site, my shooting has improved, and I haven't watched any shooting TV shows or bought any junk gun mags. Thanks all for teaching as FNG's and sharing your wisdom. Kirby and Shawn you guys are to shooting as Tiger Woods is to golf. Thanks again and excuse me for being so long winded.