Slower may be better.??

[Matt Regalia]

Ric Horst,

I have had similar experiences with the Nosler Ballistic tip. The magor problem is BAD bullet placment. A HOT loaded ballistic tip will explode on impact if shot into the shoulder at less than 100yds. My brother shoots a &mag and he has had thet happen with factory loads, the follow up shot put the buck down for good. I shoot a 338 Lapua Mag and load 200gr ballistic Tips. They are traveling 3400 fps. If you shot something under 125 yds and hit major bone they will literally blow up. I hit a White tail doe in Maryland last year at 85 yds and there was a 10 inch round patch of fur missing on the off side (I did not hit either front shoulder, perfect lung shot). This season i am trying the 225 gr Accubond and slowing them down to 3100-3200 fps. One of these day i would like to get out and hunt with you in WO. I used to hunt alot in Maryland with Al and sometimes with Dave King. I have heard lots of good things.

Rick Browning,
i think the WV boys have a bigger gun is better complex. I hunt PA sometimes and they have that up there too. I shoot my 308 in the wood and my 338 Lapua when i am out in the marsh in Maryland. I know the Lapua is OVERKILL but it is to much fun to shoot....I can't leave it home

Matt

[ 03-18-2004: Message edited by: Matt Regalia ]

[ 03-18-2004: Message edited by: Matt Regalia ]

 

[missedshot]

With 40 years of reloading and hunting experience- I have discovered 2 things. One - speed kills accuracy . Slower is better for accuracy. Second- Complete pass through is not necessary. My father killed over 50 deer with his 270 using 130 grain [ old fashioned ] bullets . Most did not pass through , but death was instantaneous . We in America think bigger, faster is better. That is not always the case.

 

[dakor]

Well I have shot 50+ deer anywhere from 10 Yards to 500 yards with Ballistic tips and I have never had one not make it into the vitals on a deer. I have used anything from a 220 swift with a 50 grain ballistic tip to a 300 win mag with a 180 grain. I have broke lots of shoulders never lost a deer. I now use a 6mm 284 with 95 Ballistic Tips and they are going 3557fps same thing broke lots of shoulders and the deer drop. I have heard of people having trouble with them but I think it has to do more with shot placement then anything. I am shocked to see how many people use Sierra Match Kings when they are made for targets not animals. Personaly I think if you are shooting 300 yards + you are better with a Ballistic Tip thats what they are designed for Long Range Hunting

 

[Brent]

I think you'll find that the SMK will out penitrate a Ballistic Tip practically every time, forget what it's made for, it just happens they don't open up nearly as fast, that's why they work so well.

Up close, I like a bonded bullet or a Barnes X. I've got big Bears up here, so that's always a consideration you may not have. Heavier is always better in my mind as well.

Out past 500-600 yards it becomes more of a caliber size coring tool, the Barnes X that is, the bonded bullets and tiny HP match bullets are probably going to begin passing on through beyond this from lack of velocity. The Ballistic Tip and AMax probably stay in the animal and do a bunch more damage cause they expand so rapidly, even at lower speed. All of them still provide dead animals quickly.

Way out there near 1000 yards, I think that's even more of a gurantee for pass through, but at this point I'd rather have a pass through, as velocity is low enough that rapid damage from an AMax or BT is probably a bunch less than optimal, where guranteed long penitration and another drain hole might be more optimal.

For killing Moose, I'd use what ever heavy for caliber bullet that shoots good if it was beyond about 400 yards. I worry more about a pass through shot not doing the damage it could have while passing, like a 1000 yard hit using an X bullet, or a bullet not penitrating at 100 yards like an AMax/BT on a Grizz. For me, a pass though shot is just as good as one stopping on the offside expending all it's energy, or vise versa, makes no difference to me, but an exit hole makes the best blood trail and sometimes it's needed.

All animals react differently to being struck. Most I've seen killed, the faster they were hit the more effect it had on them though. Some just take a heavier bullet at that speed to get their attention the same way though. You could imagine a Brown Bear being hit with a .416 400gr X bullet at 3300 fps... you'd see a nice response!

 

[davewilson]

i used to spend all fall in saskatchewan helping farmers who also were outfitters and then stay through whitetail season which lasted 5 weeks.i don't like match bullets for big game or anything that's on the "non stay together" side.most of the trailing jobs we had were not bad bullet placement,but bullet failure.i don't think you can beat a solid copper for killing.

first,killing power is not a measure of ft lbs of energy,it's a measure of momentum.a railroad engine going 1 mph has a lot of ft lbs of energy.would it kill you?

second,the best killing bullet does NOT mushroom.it shreads it's pedals and has a one dia.,flat front,which because of the direction it displaces material,creates a larger wound channel and penetrates farther.this is why the faster it passes through the animal,the more harm it does,not to memtion more shock to the nervous system.

when it's 2 hours after dark and you're holding a wounded mule deer(match bullet exploded on the shoulder blade) while your partner finishes it with a knife,you'll be a believer in bullets that stay together.

#1 whitetail

 

[Guest]

no.1 whitetail, my experence has been the opposite of yours. I hate the solid copper bullets for deer size game. I tryed the barns x and failsafe bullets one year and shot deer with both. 2 of the 3 deer shot were double lung shot, pass through and required a lot of tracking. Very little internal damage. The third deer hit the off shoulder and knocked him down but needed a second bullet in the head to finish the job. In my books with a 270 win. Blistic Tip, SST, or SMK are the correct bullet for deer size game. Pass through is not needed and I like a bullet that sheds all its energy in the game. The shock from a bullet that fragments and sheds all its energy in the game kills faster than a hole on both sids of the animal.

[ 03-24-2004: Message edited by: Harv ]

 

[davewilson]

Harv, first,don't use barnes or failsafe bullets.they're ok,but not nearly as effective as the groove or gs customs.when i said shed the pedals(the barnes doesn't)that's when you get a large initial wound channel and the bullet just plows on through.i agree with you that a bullet that fragments has more killing power if you hit the ribs.what if you have to shoot a deer in the south end heading north?do you want a bullet that fragments?not me.the mule deer that went 2 miles was shot with a 270 and 130 smk's.the following week,another customer hit a deer in the backstrap smacking up against the spine.it dropped the deer,but didn't even break the backbone.fragments were all over the vertebrae. this was a 270 with regular 130 spitzers. if you're only gonna take rib or gut shots,use your puff bullets.if you plan on taking any available killing shot,use a bullet that's up to the job when everything goes wrong.you can't beat the good coppers(not barnes) for killing power.keep shooting those puff bullets,and sooner or later you'll be trailing and not finding your animal. #1 whitetail

 

[Guest]

First of all bullet placement is the most important. I will never shoot a deer in the ***. If you just want to kill whatever pops up where ever it is than get yourself a big magnum semi-auto and put some lead in the air. When you get into the long range game you can usually wait for a good shot. If not than I dont take it. The bullets I use (SST, BT, SMK) do make a mess at close range but I have never had one not make it through a shoulder on the way in. As the range gets out there these bullets hold up a little better and get the job done. When you mess up the lungs and heart they dont go far. A little hole through the lungs and they can go a long way. I have never had one of these bullets fail. I would be willing to try the groove bullet but not at a buck a piece.

 

[Brent]

This debate is not likely to ever end, each will never convince the other their experience is the rule.

I prefer a heavier constructed bullet at higher terminal velocity, and a lighter constructed one at lower.

I shot a bear through the spine at 100 yards and blew a hole out its throat with my 300 Ultra last spring, he droped like hit with lightning. I shot this same bullet into the sand at 700 or 800 yards before going out with it, and it was a total failure by any stretch of the imagination. I've got a picture of it and it ain't confidence inspiring that's for sure. Never the less, it whacked that bear like no tomarrow. T'was 178gr A-Max...

 

[Guest]

Brent, you are correct. Everyone has there own idea on what is the correct bullet. One thing I will say is that shooting a deer in the *** is not a smart move. Unless your starving or trying to put down a wounded deer, that is a inhumane shot. I have never pulled the trigger unless there was a clear shot to the boiler room.

 

[davewilson]

i guess we are on the long range forum and the match bullets work very well at those distances.i know they don't work well "all the time" at close range.as far as shooting a deer in the a__,i have no problems with it,because i use a bullet that will go out the north end.if you limit yourself to puff bullets,it's not a good shot.i've shot 7 deer that way and the farthest any traveled after the shot was 5 yds.it's a very humane,killing shot with the right equipment.it's not my first choice and i'll only take it if it's the only shot.i guess i am talking about close range hunting.if match bullets were a better bullet for hunting,why would the bullet makers even make "hunting" bullets?you're right,the debate continues

 

[Guest]

I think bullet makers make bullets to sell. Most hunters dont take long shots. Before I got into LR hunting 200y was a long shot. Most hunting bullets are made for the close shot and work like a solid at LR. If the bullets you use work for your shots thats great. Inhumane was mabe the wrong word to use. We all have are own way of hunting and whatever it is we should stick together.

 

[Brent]

I think the newer bonded polymer tip bullets have taken the first step into LR territory, as far as design goes. Made to expand a bit quicker, but still hold up if they hit bone probably better than a non-bonded bullet.

If you forget the match, puff, non-bonded bullet stigma, and look at the bullet's construction and fit it to your need, or what you think you need to do what you believe is most desirable on impact, it isn't too hard to see what should fit the bill better than another, IMHO.

An X bullet pretty much becomes a hair better than a solid at longer ranges, and a non-bonded poly-tip bullet isn't the best choice for up close and personal Bear hunting.

If a bullet penitrated hide, muscle, bone and internals as it blows up all over inside to kill, is that less efective than a bullet creating a narrow channel to the off side and stopping under the hide? I think it depends on the critter we're shooting at also. If you need it to bust down the off side shoulder after destroying the on side shoulder, well... If you need to get through to the vitals, often through bone, consider the terminal velocity and bullet construction and pick one you think will work the way you want it too. My personal opinion, I think that a bonded core bullet using a partition, like the A-Fame or Nosler, but having the VLD shape of a Berger, JLK or Cauterucio would be THE LRH bullet! It'll come!

I'm surprised caliber isn't a bigger issue, but it's often pretty opinionated as well I guess.

 

[davewilson]

i think we all basically agree,we're just arguing different scenerios.you have to pity the bullet makers.all we want is a bullet that'll kill a big bear at 20 paces and also a cues deer at 1500.oh yeah,it has to be able to win every bench rest competition,at any range! i think we should get that caliber debate going again.i'm sure that's a whipped horse.