Slower may be better.??

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Jake in NC, Mar 15, 2004.

  1. Jake in NC

    Jake in NC Well-Known Member

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    .. Could it really be that velocity may not be "all-that" in non-varmint weight bullets..??

    ..For example:
    .. What good is 2400foot#'s and "x" amount of velocity if it's expended in the ground behind your intended target..? My particular targets of interest being groundhogs and Whitetails.. There's no shortage of "VLD bullets passing straight thru" stories on the boards.. And I've seen it myself on various varmints and deer.. My recent toying with this .308 at the club got me to thinking about it.. Could it possibly be that a bullet with a larger "frontal area" going slower but still with good ballistics could be an option.?? Just thinking and now seeking someone to bounce it off of..

    What have your experiences been with this.?? d:^) JiNC
     
  2. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I believe that was Elmer Keiths whole theory was to have a big bullet to start out with.

    try loading some Speer 125gr TNT bullets in that new 308 of yours , way big splat factor and their not going nearly as fast as a 75gr out of a 25-05 or a 50gr out of a 220Swift.
     

  3. Brian Rybicky

    Brian Rybicky Well-Known Member

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    Jake,

    Ive shot water bottles with my 30/30 with big heavy flat nosed bullets and they ripped those water bottles apart, but your going to get a very (edited by Len) trajectory, or you can run a 125gr nos bt at 3200fps and get fairly flat trajectory and huge holes in critters.

    [ 03-16-2004: Message edited by: Len Backus ]
     
  4. Guest

    Guest Guest

    When, I saw this topic title, it caught my eye right away. This has always been a topic of interest.

    As far as slower velocity to avoid non-lethal pass-thru, I think it depends on the bullet. If a particular brand of bullet or certain weights within a brand has a reputation for pass-thru, I'd avoid it like the plague. If you like VLD's look up the topics regarding Cauterucio bullets. He makes VLD's up to 7mm. You wont get pass-thru! He does not make a 30 cal VLD so your out of luck for the 308. I wish he made them these cauterucios are great hunting bullets.

    I'm an "ex" velocity freak. I used to look for the fastest flattest shooting bullets I could put in the rifle. I had some p*ss poor results. Aside from the results from bullets that were too light, the accuracy suffers.
    I hear a lot of guys talking about the high velocities they get and shooting super small groups. I just don't buy it. I have always found accuracy to decrease when velocity is pushed past the point of diminishing returns. I like to max out the speed right at that sweet spot.
     
  5. COBrad

    COBrad Well-Known Member

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    Every rifle I've reloaded for, with one exception, shot more accurately at the lower end of the scale than at the high end. I'm currently experimenting with a new Cooper 22-250. The factory test load of 36.5 gr. H380, with 50 gr. Sbk's, is giving me consistent groups in the mid .3's at 100. Shooting nodes at 39.1 gr, 40.1 and 40.7 gr yields progessively larger groups, opening up to the .6's. In going for velocity, I skipped shooting a node at 38.4 gr. I'm going to shoot that one tomorrow. Testing the 40.1 charge I shot the first group of 3 into .068, that's the best group I've ever shot! But subsequent groups opened into the .5 range. The one exception is the .300 Jarrett I shoot for big game. That rifle shoots 200 gr SMK's at around .5, if I do my part, with max charges of 78gr RL22. SGK's at 1".
     
  6. COBrad

    COBrad Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm... after posting and rereading, I guess I was kinda off topic. My wife tells me I'm a little carried away with this new rifle, Hmmm...
     
  7. Pahunter

    Pahunter Well-Known Member

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    why dont you want bullets to "pass thru" ?
     
  8. RBrowning

    RBrowning Well-Known Member

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    I am in full agreement on how much energy you want to waste on the background. A couple of years ago I was hunting iv WV with a friend. All in the woods, nothing farther than 150-200 yards at the very most. I was expecting 243's or 30-30's or maybe an 06 or 2, but they are of the opinion hat a 300 Win Mag or RUM is the way to go. Their reasoning is that they want to hit the deer as hard as possible and knock it off it's feet. They never could explain to me how a 308 bullet that passed through a deer out of a 300 magnum was going to expend any more energy than the same bullet out of an 06 that passes through too. We all agreed that your shoulder would notice and you might leave a bigger hole in the side of the mountian, but they just couldn't get me to understand how the deer could tell the difference. Maybe it had something to do with them all having worked in the coal mines and they liked deep holes, I don't know. [​IMG]

    On a more serious note, you may find that as you slow down a given bullet that you may actually penatrate deeper because you get less mushrooming at lower velocities. So it can happen that the faster bullet expands more and disapates it's energy faster and penetrates less. Maybe this is what the WV folks were all about.

    [ 03-17-2004: Message edited by: RBrowning ]
     
  9. Guest

    Guest Guest

    PAhunter, pass thru is good. We are refering to a bullet passing thru without opening and just punching a hole without enough tissue damage.
     
  10. Guest

    Guest Guest

    THis is a good topic.. Alot of guys wondered why I went with .30 cal when I had my 2 rifles built especially when I chose the 308 over the 6.5/284 and the 260. Both have superior ballistics over the 308 but in my therories.. the 30 bullet although on paper doesn't seem like it carries its weight I feel it does better. I have seen a number of smaller dia. bullets at high speeds do very little damage...
    You DO NOT have to have a pass through to kill an animal. All you need is about a .5" wound channel through the majority of a chest cavity and if you bullet "dumps" all its energy into the animal isn't that more prefered?? I think it is....

    look at it this way. In tests between a .45 acp and a 9mm the 45 won hands down.. but it was WAY slower in velocity...

    Alot of guys asked why I choose to go with the 190 gr bullet in the 300 WSM instead of the flatter faster 175's and 168's... the 190 are 2-400 fps slower but the good B.C. and accuracy will win every time...

    If you practice and can hit your intended target at your intended range.. thats the ticket...

    [ 03-17-2004: Message edited by: Ric Horst ]
     
  11. Jake in NC

    Jake in NC Well-Known Member

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    .. Hmmm.. Interesting points.. One thing I didn't mention in my first post was that the bullets I used on the Whitetails were the 162gr AMax or SST's.. And while they didn't seem to expand much, no deer hit with it took many more steps..

    Pahunter.. I'm not necessarily after zero pass-thru.. As a matter of fact pass thru, in most instances, is a good thing.. What I'm talking about is gross over-penetration.. For example, it takes "x" amount of the right combination of velocity, sectional density and energy to make a clean kill.. Anything over is unused and translates to wasted energy which also usually equates to more recoil and blast than may be necessary.. The trick being first you'd have to figure out what numbers would be acceptable for your chosen target.. Then figure out which combination will "take care of business" out to where you feel confident in making your shot with a minimum of expended energy on the wrong side of the target.. In other words, what will expend the most energy in the target while still exiting (for "game animals").?
    .. For varmint bullets, like my .17's they generally expend all their energy inside the target for a net "0" of wasted energy with minimal recoil and blast.. No pass-thru is needed to bleed the animal and make an easily followed trail.. The "shock" seems to do most of the work so, IMO, for varmint bullets the old addage of "Speed Kills" rings true..
    .. Then there's the other group of folks who like to simplify the whole thing by shooting a big enough combination to "do the deed" with extreme predjudice.. While completely functional, it can be somewhat wasteful..

    COBrad. Not off enough to matter, I'd say.. Accuracy is a big thing and I know what you're saying about top velocity isn't always the best for it..
    .. We've seen on this site plenty of evidence that the match bullets will kill cleanly with good damage.. I just wonder if it would help if they were slowed down..
    .. Geez.. Izzat enough noise outta me for now.? d:^) JiNC
     
  12. Guest

    Guest Guest

    Ric Horst, I agree with you regarding bigger bullets. As far as pass through, if I get good expansion and penetration then I don't care if it passes through or not. I shot a mulie and an antelope in Capser, WY last october with a 140 Barnes XLC going over 3500fps from my 7 STW. I've since switched to 156 cauterucio's because the barnes accuracy was p*ss poor and I think the velocity wasn't helping. The mulie was 216 yards and the lope was 48. Both dropped in their tracks. The lope passed through in front of the shoulder and the mulie got it straight into the neck and stuck in the spine (penetrated more the a foot!)

    I care more about expansion and penetration than pass through especially since I shoot at different ranges and not always long range. I just got a new 338 lapua and plan to use the 300 smk's. A bit to big for the whitetail, so if I don't draw a Moose permit this year It may just be some trophy paper!
     
  13. Guest

    Guest Guest

    I guided a Mulie hunt 2 years ago...

    guy was shooting a 7 mm mag. he "rolled his own" and admitted they were pretty hot. He was a good shot and entertained the idea of longer ranges.. I volunteered to guide him for his hunt...
    I saw him hit a Mulie at 87 yards in the shoulder with a nosler ballistic tip... deer as far as I know is still alive... [​IMG]
     
  14. Brian Rybicky

    Brian Rybicky Well-Known Member

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    Jake,

    I dont know if you saw it, there was a chart posted a while back about bullet expansion, it showed at the smk performed well at impact velocities around 2000fps, but as for varmint bullets push the things as fast as accuratly possible then watch the red mist.