Should firearm safety also include the material of the projectile being used?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Southernfryedyankee, Mar 16, 2009.

  1. Yes

    4 vote(s)
    9.1%
  2. No

    38 vote(s)
    86.4%
  3. Maybe

    1 vote(s)
    2.3%
  4. More research should be done

    1 vote(s)
    2.3%
  1. Southernfryedyankee

    Southernfryedyankee Well-Known Member

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    I have been watching different vids today and I came across these 3 videos which I found rather interesting. I always wondered about bullet fragmentation and the effects of lead and lead poisoning. I personally shoot copper bullets NOT because lead was ever a health concern but because my rifles shot them very accurately. My kids eat venison, I eat venison, my GF (whos pregnant) eats venison and I personally feel more at ease using a lead free bullet especially after watching these vids. I am NOT an advocate for ANY of the copper bullet manufacturers but I am a concerned father and hunter.

    YouTube - Copper vs Lead Bullet Study pt 1

    YouTube - Copper vs Lead Bullet Fragmentation Study pt 2

    YouTube - Copper vs Lead Bullet Fragmentation Study pt 3
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2009
  2. AJ Peacock

    AJ Peacock Well-Known Member

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    I am not at all convinced that lead bullets pose any hazard to those eating biggame meat. The only reason to choose a projectile is it's effectiveness (accuracy and downrange performance).

    This is a slippery slope. I wish I had a dollar for every time I've been eating a rabbit, pheasant, grouse, quail or dove and had to spit out a piece of shot.

    I spent the vast majority of my childhood with a couple lead sinkers (the kind you pinch on/off the line) in my mouth while fishing for trout. Nobody ever told me anything about the 'dangers'. Even after all this poisoning etc., I still received a BS in Mathematics/computer Science and routinely scored between 135-140 on IQ tests in College.

    Just my not so humble opinion,
    AJ
     

  3. MN Hunter

    MN Hunter Well-Known Member

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    The studies are very interesting. Yes I do use lead bullets - as I shoot them up I will make the switch to copper - not because I am concerned with lead - I just believe that at some point we will not have an option - just like lead shot for waterfowl hunting. I think it should remain a choice. I see it as just another way for the anti hunting/gun people to slowly eat away at our rights from yet another angle.

    I was sitting at a stoplight this afternoon. My light turned green - I did not move until 6 other vehicles had run their red light. It is quite common to see vehicles running lights on a daily basis.
    Which poses more of a threat? Lead bullets or cars running lights? MN had installed cameras at many intersections to photo and ticket these vehicles - only to have it ruled unconstitutional and had them removed. Do you think that they will treat your 2nd amendment rights the same way?

    Sorry for the ranting and raving.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2009
  4. Stormrider

    Stormrider Well-Known Member

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    I think this is all a bunch of crap. I've been hunting and eating game I've shot, casting bullets and so on. I still don't have any significant lead levels in my body.
     
  5. RockyMtnMT

    RockyMtnMT Official LRH Sponsor

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    Aj, I had to grin when I read your post. I used to do the same thing with the split shot. Load a bunch in the mouth and head to the creek to go fishing for the day.

    I was a little stupid in my late teens, but seemed to recover in my later years. I don't know if a guy can have lead poisoning for a while and recover later.:rolleyes:

    On a serious note, no lead bullets, I beleive, are going to be the future.

    Steve
     
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  6. J E Custom

    J E Custom Well-Known Member

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    There are fragments of most any projectile in the damaged area at the wound
    site no mater what material is used .

    But who eats this meat !!!! ( No one because it is blood shot and is removed during
    processing ).

    I was brought up in the country eating every thing that could be killed and many times
    I would come across a shotgun pellet in a squirrel or a bird and I'm pushing 70 so it
    must not be that bad .

    We should fight this because it takes away your choices and once you have no choice
    the price goes up and if you want to hunt you will pay more and shoot less.

    Before the steel shot Debacle we had great duck hunting and lost very few birds to
    wounding. once steel was forced on us the loss rate was 25 to 50% of the birds and
    the price of shells went from 5 or 6 dollars to 12 to 15 dollars a box.

    Now in order to get the same results of lead shot you can pay $38.00 for 10 shells.

    Bullets should be picked based on there performance NOT there composition .

    Just my opinion
    J E CUSTOM
     
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  7. Joe King

    Joe King Well-Known Member

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    I asked a close friend of mine about this 2yrs ago I think it was. He explained what the deal was with lead shot and water (water foul hunting), and what has to happen. In laymans term lead had to change it's form I believe he said it needed to oxidize before it could be taken by a digestive tract readily enough to get sufficient amounts to cause harm. He stressed that the harm was significant. but lead from a bullet in bigame never has the chance to change forms so in short it wouldn't stay in your digestive tract long enough for your body to absorb enough to worry about even over years.

    I would really like to have just quoted his words but the guy is also an ex marine lol
     
  8. Greyfox

    Greyfox Well-Known Member

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    I believe no viable case could be made for the negative impact from using lead core hunting bullets. The areas that outlaw them are result of an agenda of the anti's, environmental, and regulatory morons. The greater issue is the regulators imposing such strict regulatory controls for toxicity on the bullet makers that they get driven out of business, eliminate lead bullets, or costs go up substantially, then being passed on. Check out the cost of a 25# bag of lead shot!!!! I used to reload 3000+ shotshells/year for clay shooting. Not any more. Bryan Litz's book on Long Range Ballstics explains in detail why current non lead bullet designs are ballistically inferior for long range shooting compared to lead core bullets. +90% of the hunters probably wouldn't see any difference hunting with these bullets which would lead to indifference and no resistance. Long range hunters would get the shaft! We have to stay active on this topic!
     
  9. Wile E Coyote

    Wile E Coyote Well-Known Member

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    The anti's are using every tool they can conjure up to achieve their agenda and banning lead bullets is just one of them. Game harvested with a rifle AND properly dressed and prepared will not cause any harm.

    Their methods started with trying to ban different types of guns and ammunition. In some areas they have succeeded ( NY city for example, just try to get a pistol permit there. And in the state of NJ, I believe hollow point bullets are not allowed at all.) while in many other places they have not, nor will they succede anytime soon. Since the anti's cannot advance their agenda State wide or nation wide, they do so indirectly. Case in point, I believe the current administration has not actively called for new gun control is because of the fear mongering of the past 4+ years and the way costs have been driven up by it. The big "O" might have been the "Gun salesman of the year" for the last 4 years but at what price? Think hard on that one.

    Since economics won't completely process their agendas, the next steps are imposing limits. Limits on what you can do, what you are allowed to own, when and where you can carry and shoot, and so on. The non-lead vs. lead bullet debate is just another facet in this stage of their equation. The fact that some people in the gun community are even considering the notion seriously has me believing they just gained a bit more traction. And they will continue until they either succede or discover another distraction.

    My take on the question at the beginning of this thread is this. At gun safety and/or hunter safety classes, perhaps there should be a segment on properly dressing game and preparation for consumption, but not much more.

    I'm a firm believer of the substance in the quotes below. I'm not an alarmist running around believing the sky will fall but I do respect the ability of the anti's to continually pound away until they get their way.

    I'm done ranting. Thank you.
     
  10. Trickymissfit

    Trickymissfit Well-Known Member

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    now this is a serious can of worms!!!
    gary
     
  11. tinkerer

    tinkerer Well-Known Member

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    Here's what little I know about lead exposure. But my background is only 30+ years in th safet field, so I'm sure I don't know it all.

    Lead is a hazard to kids growing up if they are exposed to significant amounts either airborne or ingested or touched and can cause severe neurological problems. But you can't say that as a blanket statement because not ALL kids develop problems.

    As an adult, significant (read constant) exposure to high lelvels in our water can casue problems, and is treatable with drugs to absorb and excrete them out. Usually found in dissolved amounts in our water and absorbed through the kidneys.

    So, is eating the occasional lead pellets in our food going to kill you, or even kill an animal if left in them. Probably not, you will probably excrete it and it does not accumulate in the body. In the animal it is often encapsulated by the body and rendered inert to avoid contamination.

    We have removed it from our drinking water, and very few cases are found in the community any more unless you are around a dump and it is in the ground water.

    Logic and facts, the enemy of liberals everywhere.

    Larry
    Tinkerer
     
  12. Broz

    Broz Well-Known Member

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    I can not believe that anyone that has ever cut up their own meat would buy into the whole "lead" myth. It is very evident when any, even the smallest particle, of lead or copper passes through. It is living muscle and it bleeds and leaves a trace of where it goes that is easily seen. So I have no fear what so ever as we remove all this and discard it.

    Jeff
     
  13. HARPERC

    HARPERC Well-Known Member

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    I believe lead projectiles are only harmful to your system if they enter it at a couple hundred fps. If one is concerned about lead levels in his/her family-eliminate Chinese toys, Halloween costumes, H20 bottles, and most of their other products. Ingestion from game is so far down the list of threats focussing on it is obviously another agenda. Add me to the list of those that cast lead bullets, kept split shot in my mouth, pellets from my air rifle (even swallowed those on occasion), I use more judgment in handling lead as an adult, but for me it's not a concern.
     
  14. Trickymissfit

    Trickymissfit Well-Known Member

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    I know of at least a half dozen men in the late fifties to mid seventies that are walking around with a piece of lead inside them. I personally have ate at least 250 birds brought down with lead shot. Did I remove 100% of the shot? I seriously doubt it.

    Now we all sit here wringing our hands over lead shot and bullets like it's a sledge hammer hanging over our heads. What we should be worrying about is the mercury in those florescent light bulbs. The salt intake alone in our diets is doing far worse damage than all the lead shot in the land! (I'm as guilty as anybody). Plus does anybody here think that everything in our house is safe? Take the covers off your audio speakers and look at the tweeters. If they're made of metal, then it's probably beryllium. One of the single most toxic elements known to mankind. The dust from it alone will kill you in forty minutes or less! Got a transformer in your work shop that's over forty years old and oil cooled? It's probably full of PCB's. Anybody here ever work in a machine shop using free machine steels??? The vast majority of it is loaded with lead! Tobe exact I know of very few steels that don't contain lead
    sorry to bust your bubble!
    gary