shooting ability

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by dmax1800, Aug 25, 2013.

  1. dmax1800

    dmax1800 Well-Known Member

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    For those of you that have been following another thread, I have an update that I believe will not be deleted for rules violation.

    It has been stated, implied and thought that I must not be a very good shot. I went to a shooting clinic on Saturday. I shot my newly accurized Winchester 70 featherweight in 270 caliber. While trying 3 shot groups with incremental powder charges I shot 3/8" to 3/4" groups at 100 yards. The instructor had me move out to 450 yards. I have a Nikon 4.5-14 BDC scope on it. I'm shooting at a 5"x7" steel gong off of a benchrest that is not very solid and shooting bags.

    My first shot was about a foot and a half high, because I had to guess on how much to hold over. On my second shot, BOOM - WHAP. I HIT THE GONG!!! I shot another 10 rounds and hit the gong 7 times with another 2 only missing to the left by an inch or two according to 2 spotters. So 9 out of 10 would have killed an elk at 450 yards!!! With a featherweight factory Winchester, Nikon scope and no load development!!!

    After the instructor explained the results of a ladder test, I put my Magnetospeed chronograph on the rifle and went back to shooting at the gong 450 yards away. First shot was about 4 feet high. Second shot was about a foot and a half high. Third shot hit the gong. Again!!! Out of the next 7 shots, I either hit the gong or missed it by 2 inches or less 5 times, this again with 2 spotters. I had one shot that went high and was 130 fps faster than the average and 1 shot that went about a foot and a half low.

    So with a factory featherweight hunting rifle, inexpensive low-powered scope and no load development, I was able to hit a 5x7 gong at 450 yards !!! Yeah, I must not be a very good shot!!!
     
  2. varmintH8R

    varmintH8R Well-Known Member

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    I was not subscribed to your deleted thread, but hope you are somehow vindicated with your post. I am a reasonable shot, and definitely do not have a stock rifle that shoots like that. I do have a Pierce custom with a Benchmark barrel that could probably put that to shame - it shoots like a flippin' laser beam.

    Anyway, sounds like a good day of shooting! Glad you had fun!
     

  3. benchracer

    benchracer Well-Known Member

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    I am not commenting directly on your self-evaluation. The following is how I evaluate myself and is intended as food for thought:

    1. The ultimate objective of a rifleman is FIRST round hits. I don't consider myself qualified to shoot at game at any given distance until I can consistently put my bullet where I want it to go on the first try.

    2. First round hits from a bench are one thing. Doing it from field shooting positions under field conditions are another thing entirely.

    3. I own some very accurate rifles and have developed very accurate handloads to shoot in them. I can zero my rifles for a given range out to 600 yards (the farthest I have shot, so far) and shoot quite well. You wouldn't know any of that if you saw my shooting results when wind and mirage kick in. I'm working on it...

    4. Compared to the population at large, I am a very good shot. Shooting matches in a couple of different disciplines has taught me that, compared to serious shooters who posess talent, I am in the bottom third of the population. On a very good day, I MIGHT manage to finish mid-pack.

    5. I once met an old man who still held records at Camp Perry. He was shooting shotguns because he had become bored with rifle marksmanship. I doubt that I am in danger of ever reaching the level that man was on. Part of me hopes I never do. IMO, to be a rifleman means never being satisfied with where I am. Rather, to always seek the next challenge when I have conquered a personal goal.
     
  4. extreme

    extreme Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about the other thread your talking about but 4 feet high and 16 inches high at 450 yards on steel or paper is one thing but on animals ,,,not so much...Its all about the equipment needed to place the bullet on target first time every time....no matter what you are shooting at....and spend way more time at the range...a lot more time like most of us have done and are still doing.
     
  5. dmax1800

    dmax1800 Well-Known Member

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    Just to explain a little better, the 4 feet and 16 inches high shots were very apparently due to putting the Magnetospeed chronograph on the barrel. After adjusting for the higher POI with the Magnetospeed, I was again hitting the steel.
     
  6. MudRunner2005

    MudRunner2005 Well-Known Member

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    I don't recall the first thread, either...What happened?

    But I do know that if someone would have told me that I would have purchased multiple new factory rifles that will shoot 1/2 MOA groups and some shooting 1 ragged hole @ 100 yards, I would have told you that you were full of crap. Strangely enough, I have several that will do it. 2 of my 3 assembled 700's will do it (the 4th one is mocked-up waiting to be taken to the smith for final work), both of my old Ruger 77 MKII's will, and my A-Bolt II and Wby Accumark will all shoot some groups that look like 1 wollered-out hole with the right handloads in them.
     
  7. dmax1800

    dmax1800 Well-Known Member

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    I had a problem with accuracy consistency with a rifle that had been thoroughly worked over and a supposed match grade barrel put on it. I even had a second gunsmith check it out and he couldn't find anything wrong with the stock, bedding, action, bolt or barrel.

    It would sometimes shoot 3/8" to 1/2" and then shoot 1 3/8" to 1 7/8" with the same load at 100 yards. I sent the rifle back to the barrel manufacturer, who shall remain nameless, but couldn't much help from them. They only shot one 3 shot group with a fouled barrel and called it good. They told me it must be either shooter error, component error or loading error.

    My first thread has been deleted, but several guys also said that because they had a barrel from the same manufacturer, the shooter must be the problem. I just wanted to let them know what I could do with a featherweight hunting rifle with a low cost, low power scope at 450 yards.
     
  8. benchracer

    benchracer Well-Known Member

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    OK, now I'm trackin'! I completely missed the point of your thread. NEVER MIND!
     
  9. extreme

    extreme Well-Known Member

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    Seems like the chrono is more of a pain in the ass then its worth...I would like to know the name of the barrel co. so I don't ever use them..If you don't want to put it on this thread then send me a pm. thanks
     
  10. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

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    I am very familiar with issue and deleted thread. There are 2 sides to the story and a greater big picture so don't jump to any conclusions. IMO, the parties involved should get this worked out in private.

    As for the Magnetospeed, I was invloved in testing one against an Oehler 35 with 3 other shooters and their rifles who are members here. I was shooting a Vanguard 223 at 412 yd steel and my shots were dead nuts on with the instrument attached to my muzzle. None of the others had any accuracy issues either. You might get some shift in POI with the magneto speed but I will guarantee you that the standard optical chrony's are a whole more of a PITA than the magneto speed. It also agreed with the Oehler to within a few FPS of almost every shot. My next chrono will be a magnetospeed.
     
  11. dmax1800

    dmax1800 Well-Known Member

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    Montana,
    My intent to starting this thread was not to rehash the previous thread. My intent was to provide some feedback to those in the previous thread that said that it must be a shooter problem. Extreme asked who it was, and I sent a PM to him to keep this confidential in this thread.

    At this point I don't think there is anything they are willing to do or to even talk to me. So I feel like I'm just stuck. Do you have any suggestions???
     
  12. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

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    First, I have had a similar issue with a Sako rifle and Beretta CS so I know how you feel about feeling stuck. Right now I have a $1200 # MOA shooting rifle. That said, I can see the barrel maker's point of view in this also.

    Kirby said that as a gunsmith, he always checks accuracy on the rifles me makes before sending them. Not all smiths do that, but from a smith's point of view, that's a very good policy IMO.

    My advise would be to have your smith give the rifle a good accuracy check. The barrel maker has said that he values your smith as a customer and I'm guessing he would accept his assessment on an accuracy check.
     
  13. extreme

    extreme Well-Known Member

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    I, know there are 2 sides to every story..I also followed the thread that jeff had on the test of the 3 chrono...What I saw were three test results with 3 different sets of numbers..Until this happened I was going to pm jeff and ask him a few questions.
    I figured you would be one of the other gies guys that was there with him..I,am on
    my second Oehler 35 and I trust it and I never had a problem with the first one..
    Not saying the magnetospeed is no good ,,you want you buy it...I was going to ask jeff his real opinion of 3 different sets of numbers and which set he would use and why..You most likely have the wrong opinion of me ,,but that's ok,,,Oh by the way jeff if you read this ,,I have alcohol and nitro in my veins also.The one time king of top fuel ( rail ) Joe amado comes from area ..
     
  14. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

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    I haven't seen that thread... gotta link? The third chrony was mine, an accustic Superchrony. It was much less consistant than the Oehler and Magnetospeed especially at higher velocities. The next day I went to use it the batteries were shot, so not really sure if that had anything to do with it. IMO, you can't tell which was most accurate between the Oehler and the Magnetospeed unless you have other baselines or equipment to measure them against. What you can deduce is that the Oehler is a proven instrument with a fairly high level of reliability and that the 2 agreed very closely. For me, it says both are probably quite accurate to within a few fps. I doubt that either is perfect and any one who actually, implicitly believe the numbers they see on their LCD is deluding themselves. I think a good test for an Oehler is to set a couple up back to back, and see how they compare. My guess is there would be some deviation and I would also guess that ant one unit might be a little more or less accurate then another. Even doppler radar has an accuracy window, I know because I was an AF navigator and used it quite a lot. Each unit in each aircraft had its own personality. Any LE officer who has used it can probably testify to the same. As for the PITA factor, the magnetospeed is waaayyyyy easier to use than the typical chrony and is not affected by environmental conditions.

    Anyway, I don't have a negative opinion of you.. I was just jumping in to set the record straight. Peace :)