Scope issues....help

Discussion in 'The Basics, Starting Out' started by Savagehunter500, Apr 7, 2013.

  1. Savagehunter500

    Savagehunter500 Member

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    I have a new Savage 111LRH in 300 Win mag. I have a EGW one piece picatinny rail and a new vortex HS LR 4-16x50 FFP scope. I mounted it properly, lapped the rings (vortex HS quick release rings) and torqued it all. Took it to the range and looked down the bore at 100 yards, then tried to get the crosshairs even close. It's all the way down and not even close to the target, way too high. What do I do? Thanks.
     
  2. westcliffe01

    westcliffe01 Well-Known Member

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    So.. is this a 20 minute rail ? Or a "straight rail ?
     

  3. billn17

    billn17 Well-Known Member

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    Might have your rail turned around. Post pics of your set up, might be able to see the issue.
     
  4. westcliffe01

    westcliffe01 Well-Known Member

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    This is a 75MOA elevation scope, so it has at least 37.5 minutes whichever way. Even if the rail were 180deg out and a 20 min rail, you should have no problem zeroing it. Take that EGW rail off and beat it with a 10lb hammer to put it out of its misery and get a decent precision machined rail.

    The Warne M667M20MOA rail is a 20 min steel rail for the Savage accutrigger long action. Opticsplanet is listing it for $121 You will never regret fitting a steel rail. Never entrust your scope investment to a POS aluminum part. It is absolutely the wrong place to save money.
     
  5. SidecarFlip

    SidecarFlip Well-Known Member

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    Thats pretty harsh. Personally, I have no issue with the EGW rail. I've read that people have, but not me. It's T8, hard anosized and normalized btw. EGW supplies quite a few components to Savage.

    I'm almost wondering if the scope has an issue. I'd mount an alternative and have a look-see through that.

    Lets eliminate the other possibilities before crucifying the rail. Far as the scope, Vortex will stand behind it 110%.
     
  6. westcliffe01

    westcliffe01 Well-Known Member

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    I have had issues with every single aluminum rail or set of rings I ever got. The reason being that my gunsmith/FFL is a cheapskate. The only rails and rings he buys and carries are chinese made aluminum junk.

    I have bought EGW rails too, but before that time I had already made the switch to the steel Warne rings. After my experience with 1 EGW rail I said never again.

    The OP has spent close to $850 buying his scope, and now is going to use a $43 aluminum part to hold that investment, in addition to the rings ? On a rimfire or a 223, the only time you will notice the difference is if the gun were to fall over and take a knock. But on a 300WM ????

    I was actually surprised how hard it was to get a one piece rail for my savage in all the local gun stores. Several people tried to sell me rails for the old style flat rear receiver but on my short action it was obvious that the holes didn't line up. Then I noticed the mismatch in the curvature between the parts. I don't know if one can make the mistake of mounting a rail for a non accutrigger on one of the current actions. That is sure to be far enough off to cause a problem with zeroing. It just seems that it would be obvious that it was not the right part.
     
  7. SidecarFlip

    SidecarFlip Well-Known Member

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    Could be he has the wrong rail. I'd check the rail for fit on the receiver. I'm assuming the OP did check the fitment prior to securing the rail, or did he?
     
  8. yobuck

    yobuck Well-Known Member

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    i believe you will find egw makes both steel and alum. bases.
    i personaly doubt thats the issue however. have you looked thru the scope as you turn the dials? are they moving? we had an issue with a vortex viper this
    past fall with windage. a factory rep called and said the rings were too tight.
    he was right as it worked fine when we loosened them.
    15 in. pounds of torque on the ring screws max.
     
  9. Savagehunter500

    Savagehunter500 Member

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    Thanks to everyone who has posted. I have no problem investing in a better rail, hell, i thought the EGW was a decent one? I originally started with a two piece Weaver rail but it seemed to give very little distance in order to adjust the eye relief, plus i intially ordered some Vortex tactical rings, which are really wide. The EGW is a 0 degree rail and i know it's mounted correctly and it is an aluminum one. I will post some pics when i have a minute, have to head out of town for business for a few days. I really wonder if it isn't the rings? I do not like the vertically split rings, never used them before this set-up and they weren't the easiest to try to lap. I didn't get overly aggressive with the lapping either, so maybe try more of that? i also don't like the quick release levered type but they are tight, so i don't think that is this issue. I will try taking it all back apart and perhaps getting a metal rail and new horiztonal split rings? Again, i have shot/hunted all my life and all i have ever done is buy a scope, rings, whatever and mounted it without much "doing it the absolute right way" and never had any problems. This one, because i want to do everything to make it a tack driver, has given me nothing but fits. I have plenty of Vortex products, so if it is the scope I know Vortex will stand behind it.
     
  10. Savagehunter500

    Savagehunter500 Member

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    Oh, and i did follow Vortex specs for the screws on the rings. Unless my Wheeler fat wrench is not correct, they are tightened to about 12-15 lbs, which is what it calls for but i won't tighten them as much either. I also did not check to see if the crosshairs were tracking up when i turned it that direction, mainly because the bore was sitting on the 100 yard target and the crosshairs were up against the hillside about the 500 yard gong, but i will run through some checks there. Thanks.
     
  11. Savagehunter500

    Savagehunter500 Member

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    OK, one more thing. I do know that the EGW rail is correct and is concave. That issue came up when i ordered the two piece Weavers from Midway. I ordered one correctly (concave bottom) and the other was flat (my screwup but their chart is confusing as hell). Anyways, to get a different steel one piece rail, do i want a 0 deg or a 20 deg? I saw this when ordering the EGW and wasn't really sure. Thanks.
     
  12. kcebcj

    kcebcj Well-Known Member

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    I use either Near Mfg. or Seekins bases and rings. I think Vortex offers a Seekins ring on their website. I have never used a EGW rail so don't have a opinion. What I do know though is most receivers are not true so when using even a good rail like a Near or Seekins you can screw it up when tightening it down.

    I would suggest that you have your smith set the rifle up in his mill bed the rail of choice to the receiver and check with a dial indicator so it is in perfect alignment during the process. If done properly you should not have to lapp the rings.

    Figure out how far you want to shoot and how much elevation adjustment you need and purchase the appropriate rail. I just had my smith installed a 10 MOA Near rail. If everything is installed correctly you will not have any issues.
     
  13. Savagehunter500

    Savagehunter500 Member

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    Thanks Jim. I am pretty close to just taking it to a guy i know who is a good gunsmith. Thought i could get this done myself but starting to wonder. I will try adjusting a few of the things and see if i can find another different set of rings (the ones I have are Vortex but made by Warne) because I just don't like that style. Redo it all and see what happens:)
     
  14. westcliffe01

    westcliffe01 Well-Known Member

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    I always do a "dry fit" of the rail, scope and rings before going the whole 9 yards and loctiting the base to the receiver and then re-installing the rings and scope.

    The thing is that you have now cranked the turrets to their limit and before you do anything else you need to re-center the turrets.

    With that done, now do a simple bore sighting. Put the rifle in a gun vice or set it on your shooting rest system and shim it so that it it pointing at a clearly identifiable target at about 25 yards. If you can do it at 50, even better, but some people like myself have a tough time seeing anything clearly through the bore at 50 yards. Make sure when pointing the rifle that you are sighting through the center of the bore, ignore the scope for the moment. Get it lined up as best you can. I like to use one of my sighting targets which has a 1" diameter black circle on a white background.

    Now look through the scope with all the movements centered. How far is the scope misaligned with what is seen through the bore ? If you are off more than 2-3 inches at 25 yards there is a serious problem with the rail to receiver fitup. 2" at 25 yards would be 8" at 100 yards and that is quite a bit. 3" at 25 is 12" at 100 so off by more than the width of a sheet of paper. Check this vertically and horizontally.

    Most of the time, if you are out more than 3" and you are sure that the scope movements are centered (they usually leave the factory that way), then the underside of the rail may be machined skew, the holes in the rail or receiver may be out of place or the left and right side of the picatinny V section may be mismatched.

    A few more things to check: Is the orientation of the front and back ring the same ? Take the rings off and mount them on the same tube of the scope next to each other and look if you see any height difference at the base when tightened hand tight ?

    Look again at the fit between the the base and the receiver. Does it look the same front and back ? Is there any mismatch in curvature ?

    Take the receiver out the stock and set it up so that the action is on its side with the ejection port facing down. Shim it so that a level placed lengthwise on the action shows that it is level. Now place the same level on the edge of the rail. Is it still level ? If not, it is off side to side. Rotate the action so that the rail is uppermost. Place a level against the bottom of the action bridging the magazine port and get it level. Now transfer the level to the top of the rail. Is it level ? If it is a 20MOA rail the front of the rail should be less than 1/2 a degree lower than the back. That is a very small amount. The front of the rail should not be higher than the back.

    These are checks that just about anyone can do at home with the most basic equipment. The time to verify that things are lining up is before you head out to the range or even before you torque everything down. If it does not line up when hand tight, wrenching on it is not going to improve it.

    Take a look at your rail where the holes are countersunk in the top. When you look down the hole, how much material is left at the bottom of the counterbore ? I have seen rails where the counterbore goes to within 0.010" of the bottom of the rail, so the bolt is just holding a wafer thin bit of material under it.

    I have so far never had a receiver that was off, although I have heard of it on the savage forum. It seems that more often that not the action screws on the bottom were off so the entire receiver was rotated in the stock. I have had rails that didn't match the receiver and made poor contact and I have had the paper thin ones at the counter bores for the screws. All of these issues with aluminum rails. Never with a steel one. It seems that few manufacturers make steel one piece rails and they seem a bit more concerned about quality if they do make them. I switched to only Warne steel bases and rings and while the bases costs about double compared to an EGW, I have never had an issue. None of my scopes has needed more than a few minutes of correction when setting them up.

    Do a few checks and get back to us on what you find. It would be pretty bad if the outcome of all of the recent zeroing issues is that Savage can no longer drill the holes straight into their receiver... Expensive for them to fix too.