I have had several conversations with John Sr (tragically killed in a motorcycle accident years ago) and John Jr about his but I will let someone from USO answer the question. This might help give you a clue ----- Glass Brokers Inc. - Distributors of optic glass and crystal - Pittston, PA
Schmidt & Bender Awarded the PSR Contract
- Thread starter CS T
- Start date
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Boss: Thank you for the clue (others have said I don't have one). I hope that US Optics and others can fill in the gaps in my understanding of US technology.
zupatun
Well-Known Member
Did NF submit a scope for this solicitation? If they didn't then they weren't considered...If they did then the S&B must have met the sleection criteria with the best overall value...
Matt
zupatun
Well-Known Member
So you know where S&B, Zeiss and Swaro get their lenses in Germany [that's what you mean by "glass" correct]? And you know that most [you implied all] US companies source theirs in Asia. Because of that the quality of lenses made in Asia are inferior...am I reading your presumptions correctly?
Also, the specifications for the PSR solicitation weight the quality of the "glass" as the most important factor--if I'm reading into this...
So, basically if said company made it's lenses in Asia it was doomed to lose...
Maybe if I started my own company and made my lenses in Germany I'd win a Gov't SOCOM rifle scope contest...
Oh crap, I'm not sure where NF gets their "glass" from but they seem to be able to get a contract or two...
$25.8 Million for Nightforce Sniper Dayscopes
I guess there isn't a "rule" here at all...but maybe S&B met the criteria for award the best for that solicitaion? They make pretty good scopes, so does USO and so does Leupy and NF...
Matt
Also, the specifications for the PSR solicitation weight the quality of the "glass" as the most important factor--if I'm reading into this...
So, basically if said company made it's lenses in Asia it was doomed to lose...
Maybe if I started my own company and made my lenses in Germany I'd win a Gov't SOCOM rifle scope contest...
Oh crap, I'm not sure where NF gets their "glass" from but they seem to be able to get a contract or two...
$25.8 Million for Nightforce Sniper Dayscopes
I guess there isn't a "rule" here at all...but maybe S&B met the criteria for award the best for that solicitaion? They make pretty good scopes, so does USO and so does Leupy and NF...
Matt
zupatun
Well-Known Member
Seth,
Sad to see someone spouting so much BS...
Take a drive to Orofino. If they let you inside you will see Nightforce's production capabilities are here in the US...I don't believe they make all the parts in-house--like most manufacturers they source parts from the US and abroad--where it makes sense from a Quality standpoint and best value. I think the innovations--current ones like Zerostop and reticles and future innovations are from Nightforce in Orofino--not from Japan or elsewhere...
One thing I can do with a NF turd is take it, hit it up against a wall and it will hold zero...I think the S&B's are probably similarly robust. US Optics make a fine scope as well..I have seen a few in Picitinny Aresenal and elswhere and they hold up just fine. The Army buys a lot of Leupy's becuase it's quality, but definitely made to a price point...which they can afford--SOCOM has the luxury to buy fewer scopes at a higher price...
I think the S&B met the criteria of the solicitation best...that's why they were selected--that and it was deterined that they were the "best value" to the government under the selection criteria...
If you want to know what they picked and how they decided then take a look: you'll find the "go-no go requirements, specifications and selection criteria...
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...a3dae7c37dc6f662bb095d3f42c&tab=core&_cview=1
I met some of the former SOCOM personnel at Crane who were running the program (guys who earned the right to select the awardee the hard way--no ******** thickdicks...) and I'd be embarrassed to print your take on their procurement and show it to them. I think S&B has worked hard to get their contract not only from a price standpoint--but a performance one as well...they don't hand these things out like candy at a 4th of July parade...you gotta earn it and it's competitive.
I respect your opinion of the scopes based on your personal assessment of their performance. But, the rest you're spouting is plainly, BS. Tell the workers in Orofino that they aren't an "American" company and their product isn't made here and it's just a rebadged Hakko...I think they would take care to correct you.
Matt
Sad to see someone spouting so much BS...
Take a drive to Orofino. If they let you inside you will see Nightforce's production capabilities are here in the US...I don't believe they make all the parts in-house--like most manufacturers they source parts from the US and abroad--where it makes sense from a Quality standpoint and best value. I think the innovations--current ones like Zerostop and reticles and future innovations are from Nightforce in Orofino--not from Japan or elsewhere...
One thing I can do with a NF turd is take it, hit it up against a wall and it will hold zero...I think the S&B's are probably similarly robust. US Optics make a fine scope as well..I have seen a few in Picitinny Aresenal and elswhere and they hold up just fine. The Army buys a lot of Leupy's becuase it's quality, but definitely made to a price point...which they can afford--SOCOM has the luxury to buy fewer scopes at a higher price...
I think the S&B met the criteria of the solicitation best...that's why they were selected--that and it was deterined that they were the "best value" to the government under the selection criteria...
If you want to know what they picked and how they decided then take a look: you'll find the "go-no go requirements, specifications and selection criteria...
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...a3dae7c37dc6f662bb095d3f42c&tab=core&_cview=1
I met some of the former SOCOM personnel at Crane who were running the program (guys who earned the right to select the awardee the hard way--no ******** thickdicks...) and I'd be embarrassed to print your take on their procurement and show it to them. I think S&B has worked hard to get their contract not only from a price standpoint--but a performance one as well...they don't hand these things out like candy at a 4th of July parade...you gotta earn it and it's competitive.
I respect your opinion of the scopes based on your personal assessment of their performance. But, the rest you're spouting is plainly, BS. Tell the workers in Orofino that they aren't an "American" company and their product isn't made here and it's just a rebadged Hakko...I think they would take care to correct you.
Matt
zupatun
Well-Known Member
Sorry, you have to register on FBO to view the solicitation in detail. Bye for now.
Last edited:
Matt: I must have phrased my text incorrectly. I was not implying that German glass is better than Japanese glass or that there are not good companies in the US that manufacture scopes (I have some of my own). What I was trying to find out is the quality of glass that is manufactured in the US. In other words, is there any source of glass in the US that can match the quality of Schott or other high-end manufacturers. Specifically, as you said, we know where Zeiss, Swarovski and S&B get there glass because they tell you. Having said that, is the ability of manufacturing the glass that can meet the standards of the alpha scopes something we have shoved off-shore like most of our manufacturing or can we still make first rate glass in the US. This was probably poorly presented by me as a statement that most of the glass came from Asia and I did not include Germany. What I was really interested in is our ability to make this critical material here or if we have to import it in all cases. I believe we have shipped too many critical technical capability off shore and would like to see some of that capability back here. Is Germany the state of the art technology? Do we have anything that good here?
zupatun
Well-Known Member
If you go to SCHOTTs website, call and ask to talk to a Sales person they will tell you they melt optical glass glass in Pennsylvania up near Scranton PA. And in Germany. If you are talking making high quality lenses with AR coatings you can go to Optimax, RPO, CVI Melles Griot, Research Electro Optics and probably several twenties of other shhops in the US for prototype to mid level quantities...the point is your lenses and coatings will cost you maybe as much as 2X or more here in the US or Germany than in Asia...these people build to a spec. The same spec in the US costs more because labor is more expensive and Asia is very agressive on price to secure the large consumer market...period. Our technology is good if not better...we just cost too much and have shiPped our volume overseas for the low med and a lot of the high end consumer markets. Military and prototypes are still made here...
Ok I went back and found this in my files----the late Founder John B. Williams Jr had this in his 2005 catalogue and it should answer a few questions.
"U.S. OPTICS-The Custom Telescopic Sight Makers
And
WHY YOU SHOULD READ THIS
To Our Valued Customers and Business Associates,
Thank you very much for looking into the U.S. Optics products. The following two pages are not "company
hype" or bragging. We sell the bacon, not the sizzle! This information is designed to give you some insights into
who we are and why we were formed and what this may mean to you, personally. Please read the following to try
to get a perspective to see where we are coming from. We apologize if this offends you or is contradictory to your
thoughts but it is true and real and we have a responsibility to say it. We humbly do so.
My name is John B. Williams Jr. and I am proud to say I started U.S.O. and I own and run the company proudly.
I want to tell you about our company, the tremendously talented and appreciated associates who work for/with us,
who we are, what we are trying to do for American shooters and why we think this company is unique in firearms
history in the U.S..
After working in the firearms industry for almost forty years, I recognized the need for an extremely high quality
line of American made custom telescopic sights that would give shooters what they wanted and needed, not what
some American, Japanese, or German company president (who usually didn't/doesn't even shoot) thought the
shooter needed.
In 1978, after accumulating experiences as student, military serviceman, college/ high school teacher, gunsmith
schoolteacher, gunsmith, gun writer, factory manager, tool maker, machinist and engineer, I decided I would get
into the telescopic sight market for the above reasons. Because of the day-to-day job I had of contending with the
"status quo", I was tired of having to solve the same old scope problems for my customers and the scope makers
of that era not doing a better job of building. I was aware that the Japanese were copying American scope makers
and making the same old products for the same old uninformed and uncaring crowd. It seemed to me the foreign
makers and the American scope executives that gave them their orders didn't have a clue what we, the American
shooter, wanted (or they didn't care). The gun magazines and editors/writers weren't helping the cause, either.
They were playing the same old tired game most of them still play.
Weaver, who up until that time, was the only scope company actually making everything in their plant, had gone
out of business. They went out of business, not just because of market share and profits, but because they were
competing with Japan and a government supported industry. Some aspects of government in our society penalize
businesses, rather than promote them as some other country's governments do. This has to stop in our society. I
DON'T EXPECT GOVERNMENT SUPPORT BUT I DO EXPECT A FAIR AND LEVEL PLAYING FIELD WITH
REGARD TO TAXATION AND TARIFFS. The American worker and the American industrial system must prevail,
in this regard, if our country is to succeed.
That year, I started a company called Fontaine Industries and took in a Japanese National as my partner
because he knew the important optics manufacturers in Japan. Our goal was to design, engineer and manufacture
better scopes for the American shooters. Our first big client was Warren Center of Thompson Center firearms in
New England. He had just designed the first factory made single-shot centerfire pistol for Metallic Silhouette Pistol
Shooting and the scopes on the market would not hold up to the recoil. I designed the worlds' first truly recoil proof
handgun scope (Warren had tried everything on the market and they all failed) which became an instant success
and was copied by all! The Thompson Contender went on to become a big success because Warren had a vision
and followed it through. Those were great days, working with Warren, Steve Herrett and others to see Warrens'
dream come true. Fontaine Industries built that scope in Japan and it is still being made for T.C. today. My guess
is that it probably is the longest consecutively made pistol scope in the world.
11
The second success was the one-piece bodied (from objective to eyepiece) scope series for Golden Eagle
of Texas. These were the first one-piece tube, truly recoil-poof scopes, ever made. I received a patent for this
scope design in 1980. Rather than enforce the patent, I allowed the American scope industry to use the system.
Today, most scopes are made this way (one piece tube), and a lot of manufacturers are seemingly proud to
announce that fact in their advertisements-good for them, they are learning what the American shooter wants and
that is what we need in this country.
We had many more firsts and had a lot of fun. Since we owned no factory, we contracted to have our scopes
made at some of the best scope making plants around the world. I still was not happy. I thought I could build them
better myself. My working with the foreign plants gave me the correctly assumed realization that their scopes were
not made well (methods, materials and market awareness). They thought they knew all of the answers and we
didn't. Time proved them wrong and we were right. It is flattering to have the German companies copy many of our
American ideas. You may have noticed they copied the Leupold (parallax adjustment) side focus and the U.S.
Optics lit reticle (in F.F.P.) and the larger 34/35 mm tube design, as well as, my 1980 Integral saddle patent (now
out of date).
Until then, we, the American sportsmen must look at some things realistically. Buying from American owned
and operated companies supports American jobs and the American way. Buying from foreign companies hurts
American workers, our Tax and tariff system and ultimately destroys our manufacturing base. Yes, you can buy a
Chinese or Japanese scope cheaper, but here is another thought. If you could buy a really great American built
scope at approximately the same price (or a little more), as a totally Japanese built scope and it had better quality
and features, wouldn't you buy it? Please consider that in 2004 when U.S. Optics introduces our "production Made
scopes". They will sell below the price of the German scopes(Schmidt &Bender), about the same as some of the
better made Japanese scopes (Nite Force and Zeiss Conquest) and very little more than the Oriental made Nikon
and Springfield Armory products, yet they will be American made.
Today, most Japanese makers have gone to China for their lenses. Those lenses show up in Japanese scopes
sold by many of our American and European competitors. No other scope company that we know of in the world
today makes lenses for their scopes in their own factory, under their own supervision. Almost all of the scope
companies have the entire scope made in the orient or elsewhere. Some of these companies have attempted to
assemble the Oriental components here. Leupold and Burris build here and do a good job, for being "production
scopes". It is my understanding that they do not build any lenses in their plants. They are American companiescheck
them out and if you don't buy from us, please consider them.
Historically, U.S. Optics, for the eight years it has been in business, has concentrated its efforts on designing
and building the finest custom made riflescopes in the world. We are the only custom scope maker in
the world who builds their custom scopes in-house to the exact specifications of the
individual customer or an entire army! You get a chance to decide how your scope is
made! We do this at a price that is consistent with the better quality production scopes. The difference is…. we
are made in America-by Americans. The result is that we outperform the best scopes in every way. We invite the
our potential customers and the competition to compare.
For the last three years we have proudly been the exclusive provider of the U.S.M.C. M-40 sniper scope to
Marine Corps System Command. We are extremely proud to be the company of choice by Command to build that
scope, refurbish and replace it when the former provider could no longer satisfactorily do the work.
That is not to say that our custom made U.S. Optics scopes are made totally here. That is not true. Switches,
springs, raw glass, pressings, lens coatings and anodizing are some of the minor things that we sometimes buy
outside our plant. This does not necessarily mean offshore. Let's get some facts absolutely straight. Most of the
U.S. made Schott glass is some of the very best in the world today but is not always available in some types
of glass. If we can buy better glass somewhere else we will sometimes do it, because it simply does not matter in
the way that some people think it does. Gentlemen, if a lens or lens system meets full and complete manufacturing
specifications, from a technical point of view, it does not matter in the least where it was made. I have seen some
types of glass sold by Schott offshore that is better than that of most optical glass makers. The Schott glass
12
factory in Duryea, Pennsylvania, makes fantastically good glass, but don't let people tell you foreign glass is not as
good as "American" or "German" glass. Ask them to prove it-as it simply isn't true and all of those in the optical
field know it (if they really know their job). Yet, you will hear the same old tired phrase, "if it isn't German made, it
isn't as good", or "German glass is the best". It is a well known fact that Leitz of Canada (formerly a German
company, now owned by Hughes/Raytheon), uses Ohara glass (a Japanese company) and produces some of the
world's best lenses. They were doing that well before Hughes took over, I know, as one of my people worked
there.
Interestingly, you will not see lens grinding, polishing and centering machines in the other scope making
companies.
Some other companies we have engineered and developed products for, have insisted that we use foreign
lenses for their products to keep "prices down". That is their option. We don't mind doing that for them as long as
the materials meet our specs.
Our critical lenses are precision, normally taken to tolerances far beyond the expectations of our competition (if
they even know what that truly is). We build our reticles in-house, using techniques other companies probably will
be copying. Most scope companies never made lit reticles or glass reticles until recently. Front focal plane reticles
were also a strange reality to them. Most of the other scope companies don't even know what we are talking
about, let alone be able to tell their subcontractors how to do that. Most manufacturers either have their lenses or
the entire product made by someone else. Most Japanese scopes with American names use Hoya Lenses made
in communist China. Notice that some scope companies have recently copied the large tube
concept (34&35MM dia.) we brought out in 1994!
It is not our intent to criticize other scope companies but to point out their good points and bad points
and to encourage healthy competition and product improvement to improve the entire industry. That is
why we invite true factual comparisons, by really knowledgeable people at all levels. We sell the
bacon, not the sizzle.
Please come by for a personal demonstration of these unique products. At U.S. Optics, we are working harder
than ever to provide the American Shooter with the best equipment required. You can have confidence that we try
to make every U.S. Optics product the very best product on the planet! Hard working Americans produce it in our
own plant in America. We are an American owned company, hiring the very best American workers. We are not
owned or controlled by Australian, Japanese, German or any other foreign persons or companies.
Look for us at our WEB site - - -usoptics.com
John B. Williams Jr., President"
"U.S. OPTICS-The Custom Telescopic Sight Makers
And
WHY YOU SHOULD READ THIS
To Our Valued Customers and Business Associates,
Thank you very much for looking into the U.S. Optics products. The following two pages are not "company
hype" or bragging. We sell the bacon, not the sizzle! This information is designed to give you some insights into
who we are and why we were formed and what this may mean to you, personally. Please read the following to try
to get a perspective to see where we are coming from. We apologize if this offends you or is contradictory to your
thoughts but it is true and real and we have a responsibility to say it. We humbly do so.
My name is John B. Williams Jr. and I am proud to say I started U.S.O. and I own and run the company proudly.
I want to tell you about our company, the tremendously talented and appreciated associates who work for/with us,
who we are, what we are trying to do for American shooters and why we think this company is unique in firearms
history in the U.S..
After working in the firearms industry for almost forty years, I recognized the need for an extremely high quality
line of American made custom telescopic sights that would give shooters what they wanted and needed, not what
some American, Japanese, or German company president (who usually didn't/doesn't even shoot) thought the
shooter needed.
In 1978, after accumulating experiences as student, military serviceman, college/ high school teacher, gunsmith
schoolteacher, gunsmith, gun writer, factory manager, tool maker, machinist and engineer, I decided I would get
into the telescopic sight market for the above reasons. Because of the day-to-day job I had of contending with the
"status quo", I was tired of having to solve the same old scope problems for my customers and the scope makers
of that era not doing a better job of building. I was aware that the Japanese were copying American scope makers
and making the same old products for the same old uninformed and uncaring crowd. It seemed to me the foreign
makers and the American scope executives that gave them their orders didn't have a clue what we, the American
shooter, wanted (or they didn't care). The gun magazines and editors/writers weren't helping the cause, either.
They were playing the same old tired game most of them still play.
Weaver, who up until that time, was the only scope company actually making everything in their plant, had gone
out of business. They went out of business, not just because of market share and profits, but because they were
competing with Japan and a government supported industry. Some aspects of government in our society penalize
businesses, rather than promote them as some other country's governments do. This has to stop in our society. I
DON'T EXPECT GOVERNMENT SUPPORT BUT I DO EXPECT A FAIR AND LEVEL PLAYING FIELD WITH
REGARD TO TAXATION AND TARIFFS. The American worker and the American industrial system must prevail,
in this regard, if our country is to succeed.
That year, I started a company called Fontaine Industries and took in a Japanese National as my partner
because he knew the important optics manufacturers in Japan. Our goal was to design, engineer and manufacture
better scopes for the American shooters. Our first big client was Warren Center of Thompson Center firearms in
New England. He had just designed the first factory made single-shot centerfire pistol for Metallic Silhouette Pistol
Shooting and the scopes on the market would not hold up to the recoil. I designed the worlds' first truly recoil proof
handgun scope (Warren had tried everything on the market and they all failed) which became an instant success
and was copied by all! The Thompson Contender went on to become a big success because Warren had a vision
and followed it through. Those were great days, working with Warren, Steve Herrett and others to see Warrens'
dream come true. Fontaine Industries built that scope in Japan and it is still being made for T.C. today. My guess
is that it probably is the longest consecutively made pistol scope in the world.
11
The second success was the one-piece bodied (from objective to eyepiece) scope series for Golden Eagle
of Texas. These were the first one-piece tube, truly recoil-poof scopes, ever made. I received a patent for this
scope design in 1980. Rather than enforce the patent, I allowed the American scope industry to use the system.
Today, most scopes are made this way (one piece tube), and a lot of manufacturers are seemingly proud to
announce that fact in their advertisements-good for them, they are learning what the American shooter wants and
that is what we need in this country.
We had many more firsts and had a lot of fun. Since we owned no factory, we contracted to have our scopes
made at some of the best scope making plants around the world. I still was not happy. I thought I could build them
better myself. My working with the foreign plants gave me the correctly assumed realization that their scopes were
not made well (methods, materials and market awareness). They thought they knew all of the answers and we
didn't. Time proved them wrong and we were right. It is flattering to have the German companies copy many of our
American ideas. You may have noticed they copied the Leupold (parallax adjustment) side focus and the U.S.
Optics lit reticle (in F.F.P.) and the larger 34/35 mm tube design, as well as, my 1980 Integral saddle patent (now
out of date).
Until then, we, the American sportsmen must look at some things realistically. Buying from American owned
and operated companies supports American jobs and the American way. Buying from foreign companies hurts
American workers, our Tax and tariff system and ultimately destroys our manufacturing base. Yes, you can buy a
Chinese or Japanese scope cheaper, but here is another thought. If you could buy a really great American built
scope at approximately the same price (or a little more), as a totally Japanese built scope and it had better quality
and features, wouldn't you buy it? Please consider that in 2004 when U.S. Optics introduces our "production Made
scopes". They will sell below the price of the German scopes(Schmidt &Bender), about the same as some of the
better made Japanese scopes (Nite Force and Zeiss Conquest) and very little more than the Oriental made Nikon
and Springfield Armory products, yet they will be American made.
Today, most Japanese makers have gone to China for their lenses. Those lenses show up in Japanese scopes
sold by many of our American and European competitors. No other scope company that we know of in the world
today makes lenses for their scopes in their own factory, under their own supervision. Almost all of the scope
companies have the entire scope made in the orient or elsewhere. Some of these companies have attempted to
assemble the Oriental components here. Leupold and Burris build here and do a good job, for being "production
scopes". It is my understanding that they do not build any lenses in their plants. They are American companiescheck
them out and if you don't buy from us, please consider them.
Historically, U.S. Optics, for the eight years it has been in business, has concentrated its efforts on designing
and building the finest custom made riflescopes in the world. We are the only custom scope maker in
the world who builds their custom scopes in-house to the exact specifications of the
individual customer or an entire army! You get a chance to decide how your scope is
made! We do this at a price that is consistent with the better quality production scopes. The difference is…. we
are made in America-by Americans. The result is that we outperform the best scopes in every way. We invite the
our potential customers and the competition to compare.
For the last three years we have proudly been the exclusive provider of the U.S.M.C. M-40 sniper scope to
Marine Corps System Command. We are extremely proud to be the company of choice by Command to build that
scope, refurbish and replace it when the former provider could no longer satisfactorily do the work.
That is not to say that our custom made U.S. Optics scopes are made totally here. That is not true. Switches,
springs, raw glass, pressings, lens coatings and anodizing are some of the minor things that we sometimes buy
outside our plant. This does not necessarily mean offshore. Let's get some facts absolutely straight. Most of the
U.S. made Schott glass is some of the very best in the world today but is not always available in some types
of glass. If we can buy better glass somewhere else we will sometimes do it, because it simply does not matter in
the way that some people think it does. Gentlemen, if a lens or lens system meets full and complete manufacturing
specifications, from a technical point of view, it does not matter in the least where it was made. I have seen some
types of glass sold by Schott offshore that is better than that of most optical glass makers. The Schott glass
12
factory in Duryea, Pennsylvania, makes fantastically good glass, but don't let people tell you foreign glass is not as
good as "American" or "German" glass. Ask them to prove it-as it simply isn't true and all of those in the optical
field know it (if they really know their job). Yet, you will hear the same old tired phrase, "if it isn't German made, it
isn't as good", or "German glass is the best". It is a well known fact that Leitz of Canada (formerly a German
company, now owned by Hughes/Raytheon), uses Ohara glass (a Japanese company) and produces some of the
world's best lenses. They were doing that well before Hughes took over, I know, as one of my people worked
there.
Interestingly, you will not see lens grinding, polishing and centering machines in the other scope making
companies.
Some other companies we have engineered and developed products for, have insisted that we use foreign
lenses for their products to keep "prices down". That is their option. We don't mind doing that for them as long as
the materials meet our specs.
Our critical lenses are precision, normally taken to tolerances far beyond the expectations of our competition (if
they even know what that truly is). We build our reticles in-house, using techniques other companies probably will
be copying. Most scope companies never made lit reticles or glass reticles until recently. Front focal plane reticles
were also a strange reality to them. Most of the other scope companies don't even know what we are talking
about, let alone be able to tell their subcontractors how to do that. Most manufacturers either have their lenses or
the entire product made by someone else. Most Japanese scopes with American names use Hoya Lenses made
in communist China. Notice that some scope companies have recently copied the large tube
concept (34&35MM dia.) we brought out in 1994!
It is not our intent to criticize other scope companies but to point out their good points and bad points
and to encourage healthy competition and product improvement to improve the entire industry. That is
why we invite true factual comparisons, by really knowledgeable people at all levels. We sell the
bacon, not the sizzle.
Please come by for a personal demonstration of these unique products. At U.S. Optics, we are working harder
than ever to provide the American Shooter with the best equipment required. You can have confidence that we try
to make every U.S. Optics product the very best product on the planet! Hard working Americans produce it in our
own plant in America. We are an American owned company, hiring the very best American workers. We are not
owned or controlled by Australian, Japanese, German or any other foreign persons or companies.
Look for us at our WEB site - - -usoptics.com
John B. Williams Jr., President"
cummins cowboy
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Nov 21, 2010
- Messages
- 361
everyone is freaking out of glass quailty, mechanical robustness to me is where its at, give me a scope with VX 2 quailty glass and mechanical accuracy and robustness and I will take that over better glass and less robustness.
to me a US optics scope looks a ton bigger than it needs to be. and how do we know S&B is all that expensive, perhaps they have discounted their product substantially in order to win the competition. I am sure the military is getting a discount on their scopes, besides is the 308 winchester the best choice for a sniper round??? I can personally think of half a dozen better choices. because one product excels to us as civilians doesn't mean the military will pick it.
to me a US optics scope looks a ton bigger than it needs to be. and how do we know S&B is all that expensive, perhaps they have discounted their product substantially in order to win the competition. I am sure the military is getting a discount on their scopes, besides is the 308 winchester the best choice for a sniper round??? I can personally think of half a dozen better choices. because one product excels to us as civilians doesn't mean the military will pick it.
Cowboy: With all due respect, what you and I do with our scopes is not what our soldiers do with the scopes (as you might know from experience). The US Optics scopes might appear big but they are also legendary for their robustness. I have heard tales of them being whacked on concrete, driven over, and dropped out of helicopters and survived without losing zero. They can also see a lot farther than your VX-II with much better resolution (as can the S&B).
As for better rounds for sniper fire than the .308, remember that they also regularly use .50 rifles for the long shots. The 7.62 shoots accurately a lot farther than the 5.56 but not like the .50. I would not be surprised to see some S&B as well as US Optics on the .50. Try putting your VX-II on a .50 and bounce it around for a while and let me know how that turns out.
The soldiers out there deserve a lot more out of their equipment than we can ask for out of ours. It is no big deal if we miss a shot at a deer but when the deer start shooting back I want a scope that is robust, accurate, and has great resolution. I don't want the deer with an AK to get close enough to use it.
As for better rounds for sniper fire than the .308, remember that they also regularly use .50 rifles for the long shots. The 7.62 shoots accurately a lot farther than the 5.56 but not like the .50. I would not be surprised to see some S&B as well as US Optics on the .50. Try putting your VX-II on a .50 and bounce it around for a while and let me know how that turns out.
The soldiers out there deserve a lot more out of their equipment than we can ask for out of ours. It is no big deal if we miss a shot at a deer but when the deer start shooting back I want a scope that is robust, accurate, and has great resolution. I don't want the deer with an AK to get close enough to use it.
HARPERC
Well-Known Member
Good discussion, I've learned a bit, but complicated my current scope shopping. US Optics wasn't on my radar previously. I tend to agree with cummins cowboy's "mechanical robustnes" comment but unfortunately it's seldom either or. One problem some of the high end scope's have, is a lot of us are tactile learners, especially with that much money on the line. I'd love to shop a store where a person could handle all of the options out there. Drifted a bit off topic sorry.
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Sorry but it is evident that you have never handled the equipment we are discussing----to put it in simplest terms the USO could be used to pound a Loopy into scrap then put back on the rifle and used.
It has been 8 years ago (still hurts thinking about it) but was in the shooting tower we built and the steps you can see are steep. Long story short is about 9:00 after sitting for a few hours fired off a few rounds from my 16 in SR-25 which had a SN3 on it. After shooting at the 300 yd target decided that breakfast was in order. The rifle had an empty chamber and maybe 10 in the magazine. Opened the door and with my favorite slick bottom Red Wing Irish Setters stepped onto the first step. Problem was that the morning dew had been dripping off the roof and it was as slick as glass.
Going down the stairs it is easier to just hold onto the barrel going down the stairs—as you can see there is no guard rail (we put one in a few years later) my foot slipped out from under me and I fell on my back and skidded down the stairs pictured. The rifle fell down to the next to last step and the ocular hit first after falling 7 feet----bottom line it did not even hurt the hard anodizing on the knurling and as God as my witness did not change the zero.
After writhing in pain and making sure I did not break or rip anything which took about 5 minutes I literally crawled up the stairs to see if I had ruined my scope which I was sure that I had. Fired 3 more shots into a clover at 100 and went up to the house and took a handful of Advil and had the Dr (actually a dentist) put some antibiotic on the stair rash the likes of which you have never seen took 3 months for the bruises to go away!
The half moon cut the ocular made when it hit is still in that stair to this day. Now—tell me how tough the Loopy is??? The other pics are the hunting configuration scopes USO builds for me. I have had all of my scopes built the same for a number of years now and the one in the pic is on my favorite rifle.
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