Savage MLll grouping?Hi

Discussion in 'Muzzleloader Hunting' started by whopperstopper, Feb 9, 2010.

  1. whopperstopper

    whopperstopper Active Member

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    Hi everbody, I'm new to this site and have a question? I am currently shooting my Savage with a 1:24 twist barrel 235gr QT spitzer (PRbullet in Manitoba) with the magnum sub base with 40gr of IMR 4759. 150yds I'm getting consistent 1" groups, but when I go to 200yds the grouping opens up to almost 12". Any suggestions. I've tried the 180grn and the 250grn Deadcenter with the same results. I've switched powder to Accurate 5744 with diff. grainage and the same result.
     
  2. ATH

    ATH Well-Known Member

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    One possibility is that those soft lead bullets don't hold tight in the barrel well and you are getting inconsistent ignition leading to varying velocities. This will show up as vertical stringing as the range increases. Only way to tell for sure is get it over a chrono. Is the group vertical or round?

    Overall the PR bullets are felt to be suboptimal choices over smokeless as they don't handle the faster pressure curve of smokeless well and deform. Additionally, shooting .40 bullets in a .50 with smokeless is widely agreed not to work very well.

    The 1" groups at 100yds make it curious, but in at least two ways (bullet diameter, material choice) you have the odds stacked against you.
     

  3. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    IMO, switch to a 0.452 SST or XTP in a MMP or Harvester sabot or even the 0.458 300 grain Barnes Original in a crush rib sabot.

    Do you have any other powders?

    edge.
     
  4. whopperstopper

    whopperstopper Active Member

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    Hi Edge, I've used the following Bullets 1) TC shockwave 250grn w/ different charges of 5744 powder and IMR 4759 in grains anywhere from 39 to 42 slowly increasing in 1/2 grain increments also used the Hornady SST 250. Biggest problem with both Bullets was getting the damn things down the barrel. Called the sabot place in Alabama? MMP? and tried the 24HP? which made loading alot easier. Grouping wasn't any better at 100yds. The recommendation in the Savage book doesn't work at all, Id sure like to know how they came up with it. Anyhow this all brings me to PRbullett. I started with 180grns/ 40grns 4759( tried both powders in 1/2grn increments and ended up with 40) 1" groups at 150yds which was way better than anything else. Go to 200yds and the pattern was bigger than 12" not vertical but round. Thinking that bullet was getting eratic I tried the 220grn deadcenter not much of a change, went to the 235grn and things got a little tighter around 12" in a round pattern. Thinking of a heavier bullet or like you said should I move to a .45cal bullet. Thanks alot for the reply!!!
     
  5. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    I think that Harvester makes a crush rib sabot that might make loading easier....

    IMO, try to shoot a 0.452 300 grain XTP.

    If the XTP won't hold its group I don't know what will!
    Quite honestly I don't know what would cause a Pistol bullet to go from 1 inch @ 100 to 12 inches @ 200 unless the velocity were low enough to go transonic...but it should not be at that range!

    As far as too tight fitting sabots you might want the give the barrel a real good scrubbing. You may have plastic buildup.

    edge.
     
  6. whopperstopper

    whopperstopper Active Member

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    Barrel is clean no plastic, Wondering why you refer to the 235 QT as a Pistol Bullet? I thought the 235 QT polymer was a Spitzer. When talking to the Precision Rifle Bullet representative he called it a Spitzer.
     
  7. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I was mainly referring to the SST / Shockwave bullets that experienced the same problems! IMO, it is much easier to see a long bullet doing this, but a short pistol bullet needs very little twist.

    edge.
     
  8. whopperstopper

    whopperstopper Active Member

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    When the weather gets better in the spring I'll try the Barnes 300 and also try a heavier grn bullet in the PR line up. I have heard about the Barnes you mentioned and will give it a try. Thanks for the input I really appreciate it.
     
  9. whopperstopper

    whopperstopper Active Member

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    Sorry ATH I didn't mean to ignore your post, from what I'm reading between you and EDGE I just might have to start over with everything. Where I'm at now is based on starting with what Savage recommended in the book and on their CD you get when you buy the gun and all is good when only wanting to shoot 100yds except for the loading part. Will take all info and start with a new plan. Thanks a lot for your input!!
     
  10. ATH

    ATH Well-Known Member

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    Ha, no problem, just hope you get it figured out. Edge gave you good direction. If it won't shoot a Barnes, 250gr SW/SST or an XTP I can't imagine it will shoot anything.

    I'd play with a few more powders too.
     
  11. edge

    edge Well-Known Member

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    ++1

    edge.
     
  12. ourway77

    ourway77 Well-Known Member

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    I am shooting the QT 250 grain bullets with short petal MMP sabots with a mag. sub base, shooting less than 1" at 100 and Less than 3" at 200 with Reloader #7 65 grains. It wallops pretty good but really accurate powder in my Henry ball #61 Savage rifle 50 caliber. Do you shoot when it is hot? Does the barrel get hot, or is the barrel hot when you shoot the 200? Thaes rifles are notorious for accuracy going south when the barrel heats up. The same load shoots VG with the 250 grain 45 cal flex tip bullets, They are nothing more than a Hornady bullet that comes with the sabots at 250 grain. Hornady won't admit it but I have compared them to the 250 with the sabot and they shot the same. I also shoot them in my 460 Encore, it was a blessing when Hornady started selling them in boxes of 50 & 100. As I use to buy the bullets w/sabots. It is much cheaper now. Lou