Savage 111 7mm mag with Bushnell Legend Ultra HD

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by PhatFireMan, Jun 18, 2014.

  1. PhatFireMan

    PhatFireMan Member

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    Looking for a little ballistics help...

    I have a new Savage 111 7mm-mag with a Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 3-9x50mm DOA reticle scope.

    Being in the non-lead zone I am shooting non-lead Winchester Super-X Power-Core 140 grain bullets. Ballistics table on the ammo box says:
    100 yds = 1.4"
    200 yds = 0.0"
    300 yds = -6.3"

    Scope instructions say zero it in for 100 yards, then use the drop compensators on the reticle for 200 yards, 300 yards, and so on.

    If I zero at 100 yards, given the caliber and bullet type I am using...will the scope reticle work the way it is designed for the 200, 300 yard drop? If the bullet says +1.4" at 100 yards, and I zero it at 100 yards, then at 200 yards I should be -1.4"...?

    Still trying to get my head around the whole arcing trajectory concept, and I have read that 7mm mag is a flatter trajectory than the 30-06 I have been shooting, but based on what I found at the range today the scope reticle does not seem to jive.

    Scope is properly torqued down, I zeroed at 100 yards, but at 200 I couldn't get it on the paper (small target mind you). Not sure if I was high or low. At $40 a box it gets expensive, and waiting for a cold barrel takes time...so I had to call it a day and vow to return.

    Any experience out there to point me in the right direction?

    Thanks!
     
  2. 7magcreedmoor

    7magcreedmoor Well-Known Member

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    Here's the short version: Info on your box says 1.4" high at 100 and dead on at 200. Keep in mind this is generic info, your rifle may differ, but theoretically that means there is a 1.33 minute of angle difference between 100yards and 200 yards. Now, that means that if you are zeroed dead on at 100, you'll hit 1.33 minutes of angle low at 200. One minute of angle is 1.047 inches at 100 yards, and 2.094 inches at 200 yards. 1.33x2.094 equals 2.785 inches at 200 yards. Now we can simplify by rounding off 1.047 to just 1 inch per hundred yards, and that is sufficiently precise for most shooting out to half a mile or thereabouts (at one thousand yards the rounding off makes almost a half an inch difference measuring on the target, but is more significant in drop data calculations- you should use true moa for drop charts). You mentioned a small piece of paper. You should have hit between 2 and 4 inches low at 200, aiming at the center of the target. How small was your target? Crunching your numbers for 300 yards, the box info works out to 3.33 moa down from your 100 yard zero. That's 10.477 inches down from your 100 yard zero. For a 7mag, a good hunting zero for deer size prey would be around 250 yards. The drop at 300 would still be in the kill zone, and at short range you won't be higher than the kill zone.
     

  3. 7magcreedmoor

    7magcreedmoor Well-Known Member

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    Now part 2. I just took a peek at the manual for the DOA 600 reticle. (Hope that's the one you have). The manual doesn't give specific moa drops, just generic ranges. To check it, put a yardstick vertically on an exact 100 yard target, and note the closest inch measurement to each dot, with the 100 yard dot at the top of the yardstick (it will be much easier with an assistant to mark the target while you look through the scope). In long range shooting, we know nothing until we measure it! If you have access to a chronograph, measure your load's velocity from your rifle, then plug into a ballistic program (use the one on this site, it's great) and plot your drops on the reticle. If you don't have access, I suggest zeroing the 300 yard dot at 300 yards, then testing other distances to see how close your load matches the reticle. Zeroed at 300, the closer dots should work close enough for deer, the longer distances may or may not be close. If you have the patience, you can mess with changing magnification to see if you can make the reticle match your load better at longer distances, but that is an iffy proposition and you have to get the setting just right under pressure to use it when hunting.
     
  4. 7magcreedmoor

    7magcreedmoor Well-Known Member

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    One more thing, sorry, I should have thought of this right away: the reticle drops are supposed to be used on 9 power. Were you dialed down? the dots get much farther apart on low mag.
     
  5. PhatFireMan

    PhatFireMan Member

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    Great info! Thanks!

    The ammo box doesn't actually show the inches mark ("), just assumed. Could be moa instead...? Pic attached.

    Paper was 12"x12" target, no backstop. Public range with infrequent cease fires, and hard to see hits with spotting scopes they provide.

    If I only have option of zeroing at 100, 200, or 300 yards based on my local range...which would you pick?
     

    Attached Files:

  6. PhatFireMan

    PhatFireMan Member

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    Yes, on 9 power. One more thing though, and this may make a big difference...parralax adjustment was on 100 yards the whole time. New feature for me, forgot to adjust. Duh!
     
  7. 7magcreedmoor

    7magcreedmoor Well-Known Member

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    Those are definitely drops in inches. 30-something moa would take a 7mag past 1000 yards. To set that up as a hunting rig, I'd zero the 300 yard dot at 300 and test at the closer ranges. If you were at 9x, I can't explain how you missed the paper at 200, but parallax wouldn't do it. Parallax becomes important the farther out you get, and the simplest explanation is it makes your sight picture more accurate. Read the article on this site for a full technical breakdown, it is very helpful. To hunt, you can just set the parallax at 200 and leave it there for all shots closer than 400.
     
  8. PhatFireMan

    PhatFireMan Member

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    Thank you VERY much for taking the time to think about and answer my questions. I will do just what you said...sight in for 300 on the 300 dot, then note everything else from there.

    Happy hunting! :cool:
     
  9. Bravo 4

    Bravo 4 Well-Known Member

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    I'm gonna have to disagree. I don't think you should sight your rifle in at 300. This is going to sound rude but I don't think you should be shooting at 300. At least not yet. If you are zeroed anywhere close at 100 and you cannot hit a 12"x12" target at 200 yards then there is a problem! What do your 100 yard groups look like? Can you post a picture? If they are decent then set the target out at 125, if no problem then 150 and then 175 and so forth. You gotta start somewhere.
     
  10. Kennibear

    Kennibear Well-Known Member

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    Simplest solution is a bigger piece of paper. You can hot glue and screw some surveyor's stakes (about 3' long) together into a target frame and use 18" wide Butcher paper from the grocery store as a target. With a bullseye in the center you have 9" on either side and 18" up or down to hit.

    Use the yard stick trick 7magcreedmore mentioned. The reticle marks will then have hard numbers you can work with. Nice trick!

    KB
     
  11. Bravo 4

    Bravo 4 Well-Known Member

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    Yes that sounds like a simple solution but there could be a more complex problem, the problem could be the shooter! If he cannot hit a 1 foot squared target at 200 yards a larger target at 300 isn't gonna be much help. I have seen plenty of this.
    Or maybe his rifle patterns like a 12 Guage with 00 buckshot.
    Also, a public range might not let you do such things. The public range nearest me will only allow one target centered on the frames and no alterations to the backer/stand.
     
  12. Kennibear

    Kennibear Well-Known Member

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    Bravo 4

    Copy that. Have the same thing here. We bring our own wooden freestanding frames and the backing has fresh butcher paper when we show up. The target goes on the middle to sight in and on the top for drop tests. It sucks we have to read creatively into the range rules.

    KB
     
  13. PhatFireMan

    PhatFireMan Member

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    Very nice of you to make that assumption and to make such a comment about me, but no...I CAN hit a 1-foot square target at 200 yards. And 300 yards for that matter. Personally I consider myself a pretty decent shot.

    His instruction, I believe, was rather to assist me in determining what the drop compensating dots are going to mean for my particular rifle to make fine tuning at 100-200 yards easier. Not that I should leave the 300 yard range and immediately begin recklessly slinging lead at game animals out on the horizon.

    In this particular case I had dialed in a quick 2"-3" group at 100 yards, with a brand new rifle and scope, then moved it out to the 200 yard target and tried using the drop compensating dots on my reticle. Being a public range they only allow you to go down range every hour or so and, like I mentioned, I could not clearly tell with the crappy spotting scope they provide if I actually hit the target or not. As I also mentioned my opinion was that I was probably missing high, thinking that the 7mm mag round had a flatter trajectory than the scope maybe was designed to compensate for. I didn't have the time to hang out and wait till the next cease fire to physically check the target. I left the range to return another day and really dial it in, after getting a little more info on what to expect from this caliber (new to me) in combination with this particular scope. At $2/round I can't afford to waste.

    No matter what technical forum you go to, be it hunting, fishing, or underwater basket weaving...there is always at least one guy with a God complex ready to seize any opportunity to sarcastically insult someone just trying to ask for some simple advice. Thank you so much for your opinion on my shooting abilities.
     
  14. Bravo 4

    Bravo 4 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry if you took that as rude and hurt your feelings brother, that was not my intentions at all. I stated earlier that it might seem that way, but you also have to take a few things into account. First of all, and as far as I know, nobody (at least nobody experienced) on here knows you and/or your shooting ability. I came to this conclusion by reasoning that if they did you would have simply have asked for their help.
    You also have to look at the facts, "zeroed" at 100 with a 7 mag and can't hit a "little" 12"x12" target at 200. You also say you are trying to get your head around this curved trajectory thing. Or that you switched from a 30-06 to a 7mag, which trajectory at that range (and depending on the loads used) can be minute.
    ...a quick zero using a 2-3" group?
    All of this says to me that you are a very inexperienced shooter, you need help, and that you DID come to the right place.
    Take into account that you cannot see ones emotions on the internet and can interpret things you read differently than others. This isn't snipershide.com where a post like yours would get you laughed off the internet. I'm a military sniper and don't even hang out there! You also have to think about it this way (from someone with a little experience), the problem is usually the nut behind the trigger and people need to face the truth or they cannot move on.
    I would also tell you that if you are a fireman to seek out somebody with some experience, like police marksman if there are any around. Most trigger pullers would love to help. Just a word of caution however, I know some police marksman that even though they can hit a little target (when I say little I mean little) at 100 yards or so don't know diddly squat about shooting at extended ranges. As a matter of fact I wish you were close to me and I would meet with you to render some assistance and get you out to some distance...with confidence.
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014