?'s on brass prep...

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by 284STW, Aug 20, 2008.

  1. 284STW

    284STW Well-Known Member

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    I've had this prolonged project that all started with the purchase of a .223 WSSM. After playing with the factory rifle a little while I decided the round has some promise as something different to play with. I have a 30" Kreiger 8 twist bbl sitting at the smiths waiting for me to get him some dummy cartridges for a reamer. The problem is this: I want thinner necks as the .021 factory necks are a little much for ease of use and accuracy. Thinking of turning them down to 16 thou or so. What would be the best method for doing so. The round is obviously made from WSM brass causing the necks to be thick. The inside of the necks are not pretty either and of course no one makes or will make "quality" brass for it. Being as the inside of the necks need work too can I get a bushing that gets the neck OD where I want it and ream the insides to the proper diameter? Would I be able to keep it all ligned up doing so? What tension should I be looking for on the bullet, as in diameter of reamer? This seems to be the quickest way of prepping the brass. Thoughts?? Hope this makes sense to someone...
     
  2. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Inside neck reaming is a pain in the ---- and you do not want to go there.

    A quality neck turner like the K&M particularily with the donut cutting mandrell would be the way to go. Get the KM expanding mandrel with it. Joel Pendegraf on BR central for $40 sells the absolute best holder for the KM cutter and you will need it doing all that.

    Two cuts, first to take off the 90% and final cut to clean them up.

    Tension on the bullet will not determine size of the reamer, the FL size die will give you the neck tension. You determine the neck based on loaded round dimensions and how much clearance you want.

    If you have a .223 bullet , .016 necks that is a .255 loaded round. Allow min .002 neck clearance and that puts you in the .257 neck diameter range for the reamer. Suggest you talk with dave Kiff at Pacific tool and guage about the reamer.

    .021 for factory necks seems a little high, I am suprised that they are that thick. Normally necks are in the .014-.017 range.

    Neil jones at Neil Jones custom products can make your dies off the reamer diagram. He sells a FL size die with shoulder bump neck bushings to allow you to change the neck tension to what that bullet likes and bump the shoulders. Not cheap but the best.

    BH
     

  3. Winchester 69

    Winchester 69 Well-Known Member

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    I've recently seen a thread, probably on another forum, that shows a tandem inside reaming/outside turning process, I believe using Forster equipment. Using their handheld tool, a reamer replaces the mandrel, and the neck is turned normally. I don't see anything about it in their catalog, but you might inquire at Forster to confirm/obtain info.
    .
     
  4. Cruizin

    Cruizin Well-Known Member

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    You might want to look into the K&M or Sinclair neck turners. What ever you go with you should buy all neck turning components from one manufacturer. If it were me I would order a K&M expander mandrel (or Sinclair probably makes one too) for my press that would open the necks up to a consistent dimension. I would then measure them with a dial indicator and record the dimension. Then I would simply turn the neck down to what I wanted them to be at. I would try to avoid taking material off the inside because as soon as you do that you need to make sure that the surface finish on the inside is all nice and smooth. I use steel wool or some really fine sand paper if I end up removing material on the inside of the neck.

    If you a new to neck turning I would recommend reading up on it. There is a great article on 6mmbr.com

    One of the Many Great Articles from the Archives of Precision Shooting Magazine...
     
  5. woods

    woods Well-Known Member

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    24hourcampfire: I want to measure case necks, need advice.

    248STW

    .021" neck thickness is very thick indeed. I turn a lot of necks and before your posting the thickest I had seen was on my 6.5 rem mag brass which is Remington and varies from .015" to .017". With a .292" neck on my rifle I have to turn down to .0125", the math is .292"-.264"=.028"-.003" (recommended clearance)=.025"/2=.0125". In turning from .015"-.017" down to .0125" I had to do it in 2 stages cause the case can not be gripped hard enough to keep it from spinning when trying to turn too much brass off at one time. You will have your work cut out for you going from .021" down to your target of .016".

    I have the Forster hand turner
    [​IMG]

    which I like because it has a wide blade and makes a smooth cut
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    In regards to your question, Forster makes a reamer also that will fit in the hand turner
    [​IMG]

    shown here next to the hand turner mandrel
    [​IMG]

    The Forster reamer is .0025" to .003" larger than the caliber diameter. This enables you to inside ream a fired/unsized case if you have set your brass up for the .003" recommended case neck clearance. You can attach it and ream the inside of the case at the same time as you touch up the outside of the case
    [​IMG]

    I say "touch up" because you can not ream the inside until you have fired the case and created the .003" inside neck clearance which means you have already turned the new cases to create this condition. Trapping the neck brass between the outside turner and the inside neck reamer makes for a very consistant neck thickness. It is also useful to remove do-nuts completely back to the level of the rest of the inside neck brass.

    The K & M is an excellent tool but it is more expensive, more complicated and has a narrower blade. They have a cutting mandrel (also expensive) which will remove any do-nut that protrudes into the sized case neck. This mandrel has the cutter on the end and because of the springback in the brass I did not find this as consistant as the Forster since the Forster has a blade that covers the entire neck at the same time.

    As someone has said, in your case you would need to ask for a .259" neck if you want your brass to have a neck thickness of .016", the math is .224"+.003"= .227"+2*.016"=.259". Gunsmiths very seldom hit that number exactly, IME, but even so you would be able to adjust for the .003" neck clearance by varying the thickness you turn the necks to.
     
  6. Mikecr

    Mikecr Well-Known Member

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    I run a 6.5wssm, and as you've concluded the necks absolutely must be turned. Aside from that, the brass(win) -for this cartridge- is better than any other I've seen.

    There is a problem you'll run into that makes Sinclair's turning system the best choice: SPRINGBACK -bigtime..
    You'll likely need to expand and resize to produce a proper mandrel fit. Otherwise the changing springback will dead end your process. This is another place where Sinclair's expander system & wide selection of mandrels(both T&E), added to a handfull of bushings for your neck die, really pays off.
    It'll take 3 turns, possibly at 2 different cals, and some trial & error.
    Make sure you anneal before and after turning because of all this, and you might want to leave a false shoulder for fireforming when your done.

    Luckily my approach to brass preps allowed me to go through this -only once.
    I bought over a thousand 25wssm cases in a lot and culled for the best 100 or so. Then prepped and after fireforming, culled out 20-30 which deviated in final H20 capacity. I was left with 83pieces that will likely last the rest of my life. Well over 20 reloads on them now, and they ain't changing a bit.

    The cartridge has been all I could ask for, so I suppose it was worth it.
    I turn brass for every gun anyway.
    Right now, thats 223, 6xc, 6br, and 6.5wssm.
     
  7. woods

    woods Well-Known Member

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    BTW, when you neck turn or ream, the mandrel or the reamer will rough up the inside of your neck
    [​IMG]

    I use steel wool wrapped around a 22 caliber brush
    [​IMG]

    to smooth out the burrs and scratches
    [​IMG]
     
  8. TCKev

    TCKev Well-Known Member

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    I've heard about Joel Pendegraf before but can never find him. Can someone help me out?


    Thanks
    Kevin
     
  9. 284STW

    284STW Well-Known Member

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    My thoughts were along the line of running brass through my Forster bushing bump die with a given bushing to get the OD I need. Then use an inside reamer, which I could even get in a custom size, to get the necks to the thickness i need. Am I missing something or would this work? if the necks needed turning just for true I could do this before sizing down or after firing? What are the downfalls, probably many, that I'm missing here??
     
  10. Cruizin

    Cruizin Well-Known Member

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    yeah I would just keep it simple. I don't even feel you need an inside reamer. I only use this tool when I start to get donuts developing at the bottom of the necks, since I use redding bushing dies. I would just get an expander and mandrel from the same company and expand the necks then turn the material off the outside. Then you won't have to even worry about cleaning up the inside.
     
  11. Cruizin

    Cruizin Well-Known Member

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    Getting a reamer to stay true to the axis of the case is difficult since the case is not supported other than held at the case head. The cutter will want to grab the brass since the outside of the case isn't supported. I wouldn't recommend it. If you are going to take material off your necks you should do it in the standard fashion by removing it from the outside. This way your mandrel supports the neck from the inside and you can get a much more controled and consistent cut. In addition your necks will stay more concentric with the axis of the case.
     
  12. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Joel is on BR central at the 1000 yard forums. You can search for his posts and just click on the name to email or PM him. YOu can also go to the member list and find him listed.

    BH
     
  13. Winchester 69

    Winchester 69 Well-Known Member

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    I just can't help myself. People loved Groucho for it. Why do I hate myself for this? Life's mysteries. Or, maybe it's something else? How did Groucho get away with it? Did he have a pre-prepared audience? Did not everyone appreciate the deprecating humor (or is it "humour?")? How can we know? Does the Bible answer these questions? Who can we turn to? Oh, the horror! The horror!

    It's Hollywood. Hollywood knows. That's it. We can pray to Hollywood. Then, the Holy Lands will welcome us. We can feel confident and secure. Cecille B. DeMille can be our God. Then we won't have to fear Obama. Or Hillary. Or McCain. Or the Democrats or Republicans. We will be able to return to the security of the fifties and the Cold War. At least we had a country then. It hadn't been given over to the bankers. At least, not totally. All it took was time. What will time buy us now? What does it all mean? H.G. Wells knew. We could pray to him.

    Naah! We're screwed!
    .
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2008