RUM Dies. Which ones?

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Sheldon, Feb 21, 2003.

  1. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

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    Can anyone suggest dies for a .300 RUM? Are you guys all using Redding with bushings? Are they even available? If so, what bushings should we get? My buddy just bought a 700 .300 RUM. I was planning on building the Tomahawk, but I may stick with a RUM so we can try and find a load that works well with both guns and be done with it. We rarely hunt separately. Is anyone here using a match chamber in .300 UM? Does one even exist?

    What about the Tomahawk? Is there only one choice in deis, a custom order from Huntington's?
     
  2. Mysticplayer

    Mysticplayer Writers Guild

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    Sheldon, if you have access to a lathe, you can modify the Lee Collet neck die to work. Get a 300Wby die and open up the die body to 9/16" or so. I made the mod and it does work on my range brass. Unfortunately, the chamber that was cut has an even larger neck and fired brass will not go into the neck portion of the die. I doubt this will be an issue with your factory or rechambered rifles. This was a gunsmith oops.

    I had to get a RCBS neck sizing as a substitute. There are dies from Redding, etc. so take your pick. They all work but I really like the Lee Collet dies.

    There is a match reamer being offered through MidwayUSA. This is produced by PFG or something like that. Contact Midway, they can provide specs or get you in contact with the reamer manf. I am sure there are others now that the RUM is being used in 1000yd BR shooting.

    As to the Tomahawk, talk to Darryl. I think this was a wildcat that he and his gunsmith came up with. Sort of proprietory. The gunsmith has dies, etc. The big problem is that he is in the states.

    Contact Prairie Gun Works and see what they have. If not, you could rent or buy your own reamer and go for it. You should ask about the throating for the 240gr bullets. The standard reamer will not allow the 240gr to be seated out.

    Mine was cut a little too long (separate operation) but still seems to work. Could be why my neck dimensions are too big.

    Jerry
     

  3. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Sheldon

    As for match chamber, all it takes is a reamer cut to those specs. Best guy to talk to about specs for one is Dave Kiff at Pacific Tool and Guage, (541) 826-5808. Him and one other guy (Manson) make about 75-90% of the BR reamers.

    Custom BR micrometer seating dies can be made by Redding, Forester/Bonanza (about (50% cost of Redding and just as good) dies, or Neil Jones(www.neiljones.com) off the reamer specs if stock die is not available. Top cost is $100 for Neil Jones.

    As for sizing die, you can have any of the above make a custom FL micrometer size die by sending 3 pieces of fired brass in your match chamber. NJ die is most expensive but the best ($175) and it uses shoulder bushings ($14) that neck size and bump the shoulder .002 instead of just regular neck bushing. Redding bushings go lower on neck than wilson bushing do also.

    However, the FL size die cut for match chamber will oversize the standard chamber brass, so need two size dies. Never seen anyone able to load two guns accurately off the same set of dies without constantly changing setup. Pain in the butt. Better to have die sets.

    You will not know what size bushing you need on any until you know what the fired case size is across the neck unless you tight neck, say .334-.336, then go .002 under that.

    Jim Carstenson (advertises in Precision shooting magazine and on BR central) can modify any standard die to bushings (wilson or redding) for $35, not counting cost of bushing.
     
  4. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    Sheldon,

    I'm having Neil make my dies up for the 300/338 Lapua, they'll be $315 for the sizer and the seater. Not sure if he raised the price a bit, but that's what he quoted me.

    Dave Kiff and Neil Jones are deffinatly the guys to talk to first, make your own decissions in the end, but I would diffinatly talk with them first just for the insight they offer. Both really nice guys to talk to, and freely share their experience and knowledge on this. The conversation I had with both them and also Ken at K&M were most enlightening to say the least, in this endever of mine using a tight neck (.002") chamber. Ken has a brain worth picking in this area just as much as Dave and Neil. A fifteen minute conversation with each one of these guys was probably the best advice I've gotten in along time.

    They're all super nice guys, both knowledgable and helpfull is an understatement.

    Dave gets $135 for a reamer with your specs, he'll help with the details and questions too. This is the easiest way to get what you want in my opinion, and it's sharp and new!

    Enjoy,

    [ 02-21-2003: Message edited by: Brent ]
     
  5. AJ300MAG

    AJ300MAG Well-Known Member

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    Hey Brent, is your .300ultra a custom or is it a factory barrel? I'm getting ready to put togeather one with a Lilja barrel and have questons to reamer dimentions.
     
  6. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    My 300 Ultra is just a factory POS barrel, probably the worst I've ever owned too, the 30/338 Lapua I'm building for the wife, now that ones a Lilja. I have enough equipment for the Ultra now, I'll get a custom barrel this next winter for my switch barrel project. It will be a .333" neck custom improved chamber (new reamer) to my specs too.

    What's the question on the reamer?
     
  7. Sheldon

    Sheldon Well-Known Member

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    Thanks guys.

    Sorry about the two guns, one type of ammo, I was just wondering how we would keep our ammo separate when hunting together. Maybe I'll have to mark my brass somehow. If I Tomahawk mine, that will at least allow us to tell them apart by eye. If we both go with the standard Ultra Mag, it will be more difficult.

    So if I understand you all right, I get the seating die first, then fire some cases, then order the sizing die? How do I get the loaded rounds to shoot in my gun to take measurements from? If I use a tight neck chamber, i won't even be able to use factory Rem ammo, will I? If it was standard chamber, then I'd say yes.

    Forgive my amateur questions. I've loaded 1000's of rounds, and have done some precision shooting, but I'm afraid I have always used standard RCBS dies. Other than buying and wathcing an advanced reloading video produced by the Varmint Hunters' Association, I have no knowledge of BR loading techniques. I'm anxious to learn though.

    One of the questions that has been plaguing me since ordering this barrel, is the repeater/single shot thing. I know Daryl uses a single shot, but I don't think Boyd does in his Sendero. I think his is a repeater. But he's using 240's I think, so they must be seated really deep. Maybe he's using a single shot follower? Maybe I should ask Boyd? [​IMG] [​IMG]

    I want a repeater based on a 700 action or custom action not to exceed the cost of a whole new rifle (I won't use the stock or barrel anyway). I will settle for the regular Ultramag if I have to, to get it. If the Tomahawk will work and feed and still allow me to shoot 240's at significantly higher velocities than the regular UM, then I want a Tomahawk!
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2009
  8. AJ300MAG

    AJ300MAG Well-Known Member

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    Brent, you answered part of my queston already. Are you going to modify the length of the freebore or change the throat angle?Thanks, Al
     
  9. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    Al,

    I'm going to throat it for the 180 Nosler Ballistic Tip, which happens to have the same OAL as the 220gr SMK when both are seated with the leading edge of the boattail even with the neck and shoulder junction. The ogive on the 220gr SMK dictates that it will need to be seated .050" deeper though.

    If I throat it for this bullet I can still squeeze the 165gr bullets in there. I want to stay on the lands without loosing too much bearing surface on the case neck if I use the 165's and want to mag load them at some point.

    It will be 1.5 degree on the throat angle and have a removable pilot so I can use it with a seperate neck and throat reamer for the 338 Lapua Imp when I build one for myself.


    Sheldon,

    I'll give you a rundown on what this is costing me for the chambering I'm having done.

    Dies... about 330 with shipping, Neil Jones.
    Reamer. about 150 with shipping, Pacific Tool.
    Brass.. 145 with shipping, Brunos.(338 Lapua)


    If you need to turn necks add these;

    Neck turner w/carbide pilot.. 88
    Expandiron die.. 15
    Ball mic... 98 all three from K&M w/o ship.

    And yes, if the neck has +.002 total clearance you won't fit factory ammo in it. It can however be opened up later if for some reaason you wanted it to, cost is 66 bucks for the neck and throat reamer plus cost of having it done.

    If Neil does the dies for you, he will send you a neck die based on the reamer drawing Dave kiff or you send him, so now you have a means to load them a few times. After you load them 3 times he wants a few "well formed" cases and the neck die back to make an insert that exactly matches "your" chamber but will minimally size the case body by .001" and bump the shoulder the amount needed.

    If you don't have Neil do them and have Newlon die blanks ($50 ea) reamed, you'll need another "die" reamer ($135) that is smaller to do the dies with, and also bushings.

    You can get mag boxes from Brownells for the 700 that are 3.91" long, if you need a repeater.

    I haven't seen a picture of the Tommy compared to the Ultra, but whatever speed these guys are getting over the Ultra just has to be weighed against the investment.

    I figured I'd go with the Lapua case and have the better brass and a bit more capacity for the money invested, then I already have a reamer to do my 338 Lapua Imp when I'm ready too, saving more money in the long run.

    The other option is to find a "tighter" neck chamber reamer to rent or just buy one to work with factory dies, this way you'll get a tighter neck but not have to turn necks.

    Good luck.
     
  10. texas

    texas Well-Known Member

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    Hey Brent is that 30-338 Laupa you having built for the wife a 30 wolf? I know that if it is you'll have to try it out for her, just to make sure it shoots right [​IMG]. Does a year of testing sound about right? [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  11. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    Texas,

    yes it's hers but it will need some load development. [​IMG] I'm not sure what the difference between it and the Wolf are, but it can't be much. Minimum body taper, 35 degree shoulder and minimum neck length.

    I have the brass now so I'll figure out the details pretty quick now.
     
  12. AJ300MAG

    AJ300MAG Well-Known Member

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    Brent, whats your cartridge O.A.L end up at? I've been loading mine with 180g Partition Golds, loaded to max length to fit the mag their .080" away from the lands. Regular partitions are .020". Not sure if I want to go the extended mag route or short throat, tight neck this puppy. I'ts strictly my "lite" elk rifle, gonna let my son use it this season. I've finished making the arbors to true the action, and do machine work on the bolt, barrel won't be here for a few more months. Thanks
     
  13. BountyHunter

    BountyHunter Writers Guild

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    Sheldon

    Get a copy of Precision Reloading and Shooting Handbook by Sinclair int. Costs under $20, but takes you through the steps in starting precision reloading for both standard and match tight neck chambers. Talks about neck turning, seating depths, adjusting dies, sorting brass etc. Best money you will spend in getting into this game!

    Forget RSBS dies. Tolerances are not good enough for serious LR or match work. Too many reamed off center for precision work. Buy either the Forester Bonanza BR dies, Redding Comp set, Neil Jones or custom made dies with a resize reamer(normally about .003 under chamber reamer size). You will find guys that say they use a chamber reamer to make a resize die, but all they have is a resize die exactly the size of their chamber that is incapable of resizing even .001. Only fooling themselves doing it that way.

    Both Neil Jones and Jim Carstensen make the fl size die off your fired brass by putting an undersize insert into a die body that gives you the resize capability. The NJ dies use a shoulder bushing to bump the shoulder while sizing the neck and the Carstensen use either Redding or Wilson neck bushing. Both cost $175 for the FL die.

    Carstenson can modify any set of dies for neck bushings for $35. Great deal.

    BH
     
  14. Brent

    Brent Well-Known Member

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    Hey Al,

    Which one are you talking about, the 300 Ultra or the 30/338 Lapua Imp I described above, so that we are on the same page?

    I did some figuring on a program of mine that will determine case capacity from measurements, and I found some interesting things checking the following cases; 338 Lapua, 338 Lapua Imp, 338/416 Rigby Imp, 338/416 Rigby “Super” Imp, 300/338 Lapua “Super” Imp, 300 Ultra and 300 Ultra “Super” Imp.

    I measured the water capacity of the ones I had on hand, those were the 338 Lapua, 300 Ultra and the 338/416 Rigby Imp. I verified the capacities with the program and they did match with a very slight alteration to case thickness at the base, the rest I calculated on the program only modifying the length to bottom and top of the shoulder as well as width of the body at the shoulder. The neck was reduced on the 30/338 Lapua Imp as well.

    The 300 Ultra “Super” Imp, it was the only one that showed it would not be worth it to me, an increase of ONLY 1.6grs capacity was obtained, and that was with a .260 long neck, .008 per inch taper, .018” total, and a 35 deg shoulder, something I consider just about maximizes the original case, hence the “Super”.

    I moved the shoulder forward .100” on the 338/416 Rigby, which has a long neck to start with, and reduced the total taper from .024” to .020”, this took capacity from 138gr to 143.3gr water. This was a worthwhile improvement, I thought.

    I ended up with 119.8gr capacity on the 30/338 Lapua “Super” Imp using .018” total taper and .280” long neck and a 35 degree shoulder. The same design necked up to 338 gave me 120.6gr capacity, only the neck will be about .260” long.


    Case capacity in the 338 Lapua was 112.3gr (virgin cases), the 300 Ultra was 115.5 fire formed and 117.1gr improved.

    Thought you all might find this a little interesting. [​IMG]