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Rifles, Reloading, Optics, Equipment
Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics
Ruger M77 as a Long Range Rifle?
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<blockquote data-quote="johnlittletree" data-source="post: 1490192" data-attributes="member: 105653"><p>Yes they can. The problem is this! Any ignorant person with an IQ under 83 can true up a Remington Action with very little in the way of machinist skill or knowledge. The second you add a flat bottom, metric threads and integral recoil lug you have to actually have some skill and some knowledge. That is why Winchester M70 with CRF, Mauser 98, Howa and the rest are freq. passed over. It is the Chevy Small Block V8 all over again. The Chevy Small Block V8 was a terrible design from a performance stand point but they where dirt cheap for a long time, had not changed much over time, and everyone and their mom that was chasing after a soft market made parts for it so that kept prices down. Oh and it was not at all hard to improve on the factories terrible machining and low quality parts. </p><p></p><p>A lot of people fail to understand that the Remington 700 was designed to be a cheap to produce rifle same as the Savage 110 line. Compared to a Mauser, Springfield 1903 and Winchester M70 pre-64 they where dirt cheap. Because they where round any moron with a lathe could true them up. People used to double sleeve the bolts to get rid of the 20+lbs. of side load on the bolt lugs, bush the firing pin, cut new threaded so that everything was concentric and plumb etc....Remington never machined the action very well and their barrels where junk almost forever but they where cheap and easy to true up. </p><p></p><p>Should add that not everyone's idea of truing up a Remington action is the same. On top of that it depends on what you are doing building a hunting rifle, tactical/practical comp rifle or wanting to build a BR gun. </p><p></p><p>A real gun smith or machinist would not have a hard time truing up any action with a lathe and endmill. </p><p></p><p>I am only 45 years old and I can remember when BR competitions had mostly Remington, Mauser, Springfield actions. High Power almost never had anyone using custom actions. Likewise I can remember when High Power and Palma where insanely popular! In fact it is Palma that gave the Ruger M77 tang safety a bad reputation.</p><p></p><p>Another problem is how much faster people can spit out a "semi-trued" Remington action they can do 3 Remington Actions in the time it takes to do one of anything else and there is no shortage of work. People still buy anything Remington kicks out the door no matter how poor the quality is. A Gunsmith would be stupid not to go after the easy money Remington trued/blue printed action market. Sadly most of the "blue printed" Remington actions today are terrible sloppy in terms of the level of machining precision. You do not even see anyone offering to sleeve the bolt so the bolt body becomes the caming surface taking the 20+lbs. side loading off of the bolt lugs. Lapping the lugs does nothing for the side loading on the lugs when locked in battery. </p><p></p><p>The Remington 700 also had a much faster lock time than most of the more traditional actions. </p><p></p><p>So for anything that is practical shooting like F-Class, High Power, Tactical Shooting, Silhouette, hunting etc....the action is not the limiting factor not if we assume all of them are at the very least trued up. Many other things like reloading components, reloading consistency, precision, barrel, quality of machine work, ability to read wind, shooter skill are all far more important. This assumes the actions are not total junk. </p><p></p><p>The further you go back the less people could "buy" a win. You also did not see as many people hung up on the idea of needing to copy the gear of current champions or needing custom actions to win etc....People where just less nurotic about these things. </p><p></p><p>So do not try to turn the Ruger M77 tang safety into a BR gun but for anything else it can be made into a really nice rifle.</p><p></p><p>I am not sure why Ruger does this but a lot of them had longer than ideal throats. Everyone I know that reloads has Ruger's that shoot tiny little groups. On the other hand finding a Ruger that shoots tiny little groups with factory ammo was rare! I think it is the longer than ideal throats. My M77 MKII VT in 308 Win is like that. My hand loads shoot 1/4-1/2 inch groups from a bench. If I load factory ammo into it the groups open up to 1-2 inches at 100 yards. For fun I once took some American Eagle ammo apart and cleaned up the case necks and reseated the bullets out further to match the factory chamber and the groups shrank from 1-2 MOA to 3/4 MOA with no other changes.</p><p></p><p>So it is just a matter of find a good smith that works on them to true it up and re-barrel it for you!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="johnlittletree, post: 1490192, member: 105653"] Yes they can. The problem is this! Any ignorant person with an IQ under 83 can true up a Remington Action with very little in the way of machinist skill or knowledge. The second you add a flat bottom, metric threads and integral recoil lug you have to actually have some skill and some knowledge. That is why Winchester M70 with CRF, Mauser 98, Howa and the rest are freq. passed over. It is the Chevy Small Block V8 all over again. The Chevy Small Block V8 was a terrible design from a performance stand point but they where dirt cheap for a long time, had not changed much over time, and everyone and their mom that was chasing after a soft market made parts for it so that kept prices down. Oh and it was not at all hard to improve on the factories terrible machining and low quality parts. A lot of people fail to understand that the Remington 700 was designed to be a cheap to produce rifle same as the Savage 110 line. Compared to a Mauser, Springfield 1903 and Winchester M70 pre-64 they where dirt cheap. Because they where round any moron with a lathe could true them up. People used to double sleeve the bolts to get rid of the 20+lbs. of side load on the bolt lugs, bush the firing pin, cut new threaded so that everything was concentric and plumb etc....Remington never machined the action very well and their barrels where junk almost forever but they where cheap and easy to true up. Should add that not everyone's idea of truing up a Remington action is the same. On top of that it depends on what you are doing building a hunting rifle, tactical/practical comp rifle or wanting to build a BR gun. A real gun smith or machinist would not have a hard time truing up any action with a lathe and endmill. I am only 45 years old and I can remember when BR competitions had mostly Remington, Mauser, Springfield actions. High Power almost never had anyone using custom actions. Likewise I can remember when High Power and Palma where insanely popular! In fact it is Palma that gave the Ruger M77 tang safety a bad reputation. Another problem is how much faster people can spit out a "semi-trued" Remington action they can do 3 Remington Actions in the time it takes to do one of anything else and there is no shortage of work. People still buy anything Remington kicks out the door no matter how poor the quality is. A Gunsmith would be stupid not to go after the easy money Remington trued/blue printed action market. Sadly most of the "blue printed" Remington actions today are terrible sloppy in terms of the level of machining precision. You do not even see anyone offering to sleeve the bolt so the bolt body becomes the caming surface taking the 20+lbs. side loading off of the bolt lugs. Lapping the lugs does nothing for the side loading on the lugs when locked in battery. The Remington 700 also had a much faster lock time than most of the more traditional actions. So for anything that is practical shooting like F-Class, High Power, Tactical Shooting, Silhouette, hunting etc....the action is not the limiting factor not if we assume all of them are at the very least trued up. Many other things like reloading components, reloading consistency, precision, barrel, quality of machine work, ability to read wind, shooter skill are all far more important. This assumes the actions are not total junk. The further you go back the less people could "buy" a win. You also did not see as many people hung up on the idea of needing to copy the gear of current champions or needing custom actions to win etc....People where just less nurotic about these things. So do not try to turn the Ruger M77 tang safety into a BR gun but for anything else it can be made into a really nice rifle. I am not sure why Ruger does this but a lot of them had longer than ideal throats. Everyone I know that reloads has Ruger's that shoot tiny little groups. On the other hand finding a Ruger that shoots tiny little groups with factory ammo was rare! I think it is the longer than ideal throats. My M77 MKII VT in 308 Win is like that. My hand loads shoot 1/4-1/2 inch groups from a bench. If I load factory ammo into it the groups open up to 1-2 inches at 100 yards. For fun I once took some American Eagle ammo apart and cleaned up the case necks and reseated the bullets out further to match the factory chamber and the groups shrank from 1-2 MOA to 3/4 MOA with no other changes. So it is just a matter of find a good smith that works on them to true it up and re-barrel it for you! [/QUOTE]
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