RRAs 9" twist doesn't shoot 65gr GK well?

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Iron Worker, Apr 2, 2009.

  1. Iron Worker

    Iron Worker Well-Known Member

    Apr 3, 2004
    20" bbl RRAs coyote upper 9"twist doesn't seem to shoot better then 1.5 MOA at 100 yds with AA2520 25.5grs Avg MV was 3,000. This rifle groups 55gr V-max in 3/4MOA with Bench Mark at 3175 Avg. On Box of Bullets Sierra recommends twist rates between 7-10" . What's the problem? I want a 300 yd coyote AR-15
  2. 436

    436 Well-Known Member

    Mar 22, 2009
    You might try this load it sure works for me; Win case, CCI #41 primer, 65gr GK Sierra, Hodg; H-335 {25.0grs.} Vel’s run’s 2950 fps {tracking with M855} from my M4 clone 16.5 barrel and a little faster in the 20” AR15 with 1-9 twist barrel. Both rifles are very accurate with this load’…, it’s the only one I use in my gas guns now. It’s very hard on Yotes; waaaaay out there.

    Good luck.


  3. Iron Worker

    Iron Worker Well-Known Member

    Apr 3, 2004
    436 How well ? What size groups? Today I was shooting 25.6grs of H335 behind this bullet. My groups were about 1.5+ MV of 3,025. Was I pushing it too hard? Best groups were IMR 4064 24.9 grs with a MV of about 2,850. Tighter group about 1.25 MOA IMR powder was the closest in burn rates to Varget that I can't seem to get....... Bought some Federal Ball ammo 193 55gr FMJBT those loads were HOT 3300 fps and produced 1"MOA I pulled the bullets on 3 of those bad boys. 27.8grs of Ball powder. This ball powder looked like either BL-c2 or H335 ,or maybe it was AA2520 or WW760 . ????? Dang I don't have a clue but shooting them you could feel how the action slammed harder back. Plus they shot well. So what is the moral of this story? Performace of that Federal Ball ammo was like throwing a monkey wrench into the mix?
  4. 436

    436 Well-Known Member

    Mar 22, 2009
    Iron Worker
    My groups ran on average 1” or less depending on the weapon and the optics I had on it at the time.
    The AR15 A2 clone with a 20” 1-9 twist hovered around 1.0” for 3 shot group, using my ACOG .35x35
    My Colt M4 clone with a 16.5” 1-7 twist holds a nice sub moa around 0.75” on it I have a Leupold Prismatic.
    The third rifle I used 65gr Sierra's in was my custom .223 Rem M700 LR with a 30” 1-8 twist Polygonal. I have a Leupold Mk4 M1 16X {This rifle was rechambered from .223 Rem to .222 Mag; just for fun, it shot fine as a .223 Rem, but I wanted to see if I could pick up a little more vel’s while using 80gr Mk’s for 1k matches.} When it was a .223 Rem I used the 65gr. Gk’s in it with the same H335 load and turned in many sub 0.50” five shot groups.

    Here’s a scale burn rate; that might help you with M193 Federal and Military powders

    1 R-1, Norma
    2 N100, Accurate
    3 N310, Vihtavuori
    4 Bullseye, Alliant
    5 BA 10, Vectan
    6 WST, Winchester
    7 P805, RWS
    8 N312, Vihtavuori
    9 W-230, Winchester
    10 Solo 1000, Accurate
    11 Clays, Hodgdon
    12 Red Dot, Alliant
    13 N318, Vihtavuori
    14 P 801, RWS
    15 Hi-Skor 700X, IMR
    16 AS, Vectan
    17 N320, Vihtavuori
    18 TR 100, Hodgdon
    19 Green Dot, Alliant
    20 International, Hodgdon
    21 No. 2, Accurate
    22 N321, Vihtavuori
    23 AS25, Vectan
    24 N324, Vihtavuori
    25 HP-38, Hodgdon
    26 w-230P, Winchester
    27 W-231, Winchester
    28 N325, Vihtavuori
    29 W-452, Winchester
    30 N330, Vihtavuori
    31 HS-5, Hodgdon
    32 PB, IMR
    33 N331, Vihtavuori
    34 No. 5, Accurate
    35 BA 9, Vectan
    36 Unique, Alliant
    37 P 803, RWS
    38 A1, Vectan
    39 W-473, Winchester
    40 P 804, RWS
    41 SR-4756, IMR
    42 WSL, Winchester
    43 Power Pistol, Alliant
    44 Universal, Hodgdon
    45 SR-7625, IMR
    46 W-473AA, Winchester
    47 A0, Vectan
    48 Herco, Alliant
    49 SP 8, Vectan
    50 N340, Vihtavuori
    51 WSF, Winchester
    52 AL5, Alcan
    53 W-500HS, Winchester
    54 HS-5, Hodgdon
    55 AL7, Alcan
    56 W-540MS, Winchester
    57 HS-6, Hodgdon
    58 W-540, Winchester
    59 3N37, Vihtavuori
    60 WAP, Winchester
    61 AL8, Alcan
    62 Hi-Skor 800-X, IMR
    63 N350, Vihtavuori
    64 HS-7, Hodgdon
    65 R-23, Norma
    66 N-1020, Norma
    67 H-240, Hodgdon
    68 W-571, Winchester
    69 SP 2, Vectan
    70 W-630, Winchester
    71 W-630P, Winchester
    72 N105SM, Vihtavuori
    73 No. 7, Accurate
    74 Blue Dot, Alliant
    75 No. 9, Accurate
    76 BA 6, Vectan
    77 P 806, RWS
    78 2400, Alliant
    79 N110, Vihtavuori
    80 R-123, Norma
    81 30 Carb, RWS
    82 SP 3, Vectan
    83 H-110, Hodgdon
    84 W-296, Winchester
    85 W-295HP, Winchester
    86 SR-4759, IMR
    87 N120, Vihtavuori
    88 XMP-5744, Accurate
    89 IMR-4227, IMR
    90 N125, Vihtavuori
    91 H-4227, Hodgdon
    92 N130, Vihtavuori
    93 TU 2000, Vectan
    94 1680, Accurate
    95 W-680, Winchester
    96 R 901, RWS
    97 N132, Vihtavuori
    98 Hornet, Nobel
    99 N-200, Norma
    100 N133, Vihtavuori
    101 Brigadier 4197- Scot
    102 IMR-4198, IMR
    103 H-4198, Hodgdon
    104 XMR-2015, Accurate
    105 2015BR- Accurate
    106 Reloder 7, Alliant
    107 HiVel 2, Hercules
    108 N134, Vihtavuori
    109 R 902, RWS
    110 IMR-3031, IMR
    111 Benchmark 1, Hodgdon
    112 N-201, Norma
    113 H-322, Hodgdon
    114 IMR 8208
    115 Benchmark 2, Hodgdon
    116 TU 3000, Vectan
    117 2230, Accurate
    118 Brigadier 3032- Scot
    119 IMR-4895
    120 H-4895, Hodgdon
    121 SP 10, Vectan
    122 H-335, Hodgdon
    123 R 903, RWS
    124 WC 844
    125 BL-C(2), Hodgdon
    126 WC 846
    127 SP 9, Vectan
    128 2460, Accurate
    129 SP 7, Vectan
    130 W-748, Winchester
    131 W-748BR, Winchester
    132 Reloder 11, Hercules
    133 Reloder 12, Alliant
    134 N135, Vihtavuori
    135 IMR-4064, IMR
    136 Brigadier 4065- Scot
    137 Varget, Hodgdon
    138 2520, Accurate
    139 N-202, Norma
    140 XMR-4064, Accurate
    141 TU 5000, Vectan
    142 R 907, RWS
    143 N-203, Norma
    144 Neonite 12- Nobel
    145 IMR-4320, IMR
    146 H-375, Hodgdon
    147 N540, Vihtavuori
    148 N140, Vihtavuori
    149 2700, Accurate
    150 Reloder 15, Alliant
    151 Reloder 21, Hercules
    152 H-380, Hodgdon
    153 N550, Vihtavuori
    154 N150, Vihtavuori
    155 WC 852 (fast) WC852 and WC852f are different burn rates. WC852f uses H380 data.
    156 R 904, RWS
    157 W-760, Winchester
    158 W-760BR, Winchester
    159 H-414, Hodgdon
    160 H-205, Hodgdon
    161 N160, Vihtavuori
    162 N560, Vihtavuori
    163 4350, Accurate
    164 IMR-4350, IMR
    165 H-4350, Hodgdon
    166 TU 7000, Vectan
    167 N-204, Norma
    168 W-780BR, Winchester
    169 Brigadier 4351- Scot
    170 Reloder 19, Alliant
    171 IMR-4831, IMR
    172 N-205, Norma
    173 WC 852 (slow) WC852 and WC852f are different burn rates. WC852 uses IMR 4831 data.
    174 XMR-3100, Accurate
    175 H-450, Hodgdon
    176 H-4831, Hodgdon
    177 SP 12, Vectan
    178 W-785, Winchester
    179 MRP, Norma
    180 N165, Vihtavuori
    181 R 905, RWS
    182 H-831, Hodgdon
    183 TU 8000, Vectan
    184 Reloder 22, Alliant
    185 H-570, Hodgdon
    186 IMR-7828, IMR
    187 8700- Accurate
    188 WC 860
    189 24N41, Vihtavuori
    190 H-1000, Hodgdon
    191 H-870, Hodgdon
    192 H-5010, Hodgdon
    193 SP 13, Vectan

    Powder/Manufacturer Sierra’s Designation Also Known As, or may
    Factory Designation 5th Edition Manual be listed elsewhere as:

    Norma R1 Norma R1 R1
    Vihtavuori N310 Viht N310
    Hodgdon Titewad Titewad
    Accurate Arms Nitro 100 AA-N-100 N100
    Hercules/Alliant Bullseye Bullseye B’eye
    Accurate Arms Solo 1000 Solo 1000
    Hodgdon Titegroup Titegroup
    Accurate Arms No. 2 AA-No.2 No.2, #2, AA #2
    Alliant American Select Am. Select
    Hercules/Alliant Red Dot Red Dot RDOT
    Hodgdon Clays Clays
    Vihtavuori N320 Viht N320 N320
    Winchester Super Target WST Win WST
    Ramshot Competition Competition
    Hodgdon HP38 HP38 HP-38
    Winchester 231 231 WW 231, W-W 231, Win 231
    Ramshot Zip Zip
    IMR Hi-Skor@ 700X 700X 700-X
    Hercules/Alliant Green Dot Green Dot GDOT
    Hodgdon International Clays Int’l Clays International
    Vihtavuori N330 Viht N330 N330
    Accurate Arms No. 5 AA-No.5 No. 5, #5, AA #5
    Winchester Super Lite WSL WSL1, WSL8, Win WSL
    Hercules/Alliant Unique Unique UNIQ
    Hodgdon Universal Clays Univ. Clays H. Universal

    (Universal Clays should not be confused with Hodgdon’s Clays, or International Clays. These three powders are different and should not be interchanged.)

    Alliant Power Pistol Power Pistol
    IMR SR 7625 SR 7625
    Hodgdon HS-6 HS-6 HS6
    Ramshot Silhouette Silhouette
    Winchester Action Pistol WAP Win WAP
    Vihtavuori N340 Viht N340 N340
    Winchester 540 540 WW 540, W-W 540
    Hercules/Alliant Herco Herco
    Winchester Super Field WSF Win WSF
    IMR SR 4756 SR 4756
    Vihtavuori 3N37 Viht 3N37 3N37
    IMR AHi-Skor@ 800X 800X 800-X
    Accurate Arms No. 7 AA-No. 7 No.7, #7, AA #7
    Hodgdon Longshot Longshot
    Ramshot True Blue True Blue
    Vihtavuori N350 Viht N350 N350
    Vihtavuori 3N38 Viht 3N38 3N38
    Hodgdon HS-7 HS-7 HS7
    Hercules/Alliant Blue Dot Blue Dot BDOT
    Vihtavouri N105 Super Magnum Viht N105 N105
    Accurate Arms No. 9 AA-No.9 No.9, #9, AA #9
    Ramshot Enforcer Enforcer
    Hercules/Alliant 2400 2400
    Vihtavuori N110 Viht N110 N110
    Hodgdon Lil’Gun Lil’Gun
    Norma R123 Norma R123 R123, R-123
    Hodgdon H110 H110 H-110
    Winchester 296 296 WW 296, W-W 296, Win 296
    IMR SR 4759 SR 4759
    Vihtavuori N120 Viht N120 N120
    IMR 4227 IMR-4227
    Accurate Arms XMR-5744 XMR-5744 5744, AA-5744
    Hodgdon H4227 H4227
    Vihtavuori N130 Viht N130 N130
    Accurate Arms 1680 AA-1680 1680
    Norma 200 Norma 200 Norma N-200, N200
    Vihtavuori N133 Viht N133 N133
    Hodgdon H4198 H4198
    IMR 4198 IMR-4198
    Accurate Arms XMR-2015 XMR-2015 AA-2015, AA-2015BR
    Hercules/Alliant Reloder 7 RE-7 RE7, Re7, RL-7, RX7
    IMR 3031 IMR-3031
    Hodgdon Benchmark Benchmark
    Norma 201 Norma 201 Norma N-201, 201, N201
    Hodgdon H322 H322 H-322
    Ramshot X-Terminator X-Terminator
    Accurate Arms 2230 AA-2230 2230
    Winchester 748 748 WW 748, W-W 748, Win 748
    Hodgdon Ball C(2) BL-C(2) BL-C2
    Accurate Arms 2460 AA-2460 2460
    Hodgdon H335 H335 H-335
    Ramshot TAC TAC
    Hodgdon H4895 H4895 H-4895
    Accurate Arms XMR-2495 XMR-2495 2495, 2495BR, #2495, AA-2495
    Hercules/Alliant Reloder 12 RE-12 Re12, RL-12, RX12
    IMR 4895 IMR-4895
    Vihtavuori N135 Viht N135 N135
    Hodgdon Varget VARGET
    IMR 4064 IMR-4064
    Accurate Arms XMR-4064 XMR-4064 AA-4064
    Accurate Arms 2520 AA-2520 2520, #2520, AA-2520
    IMR 4320 IMR-4320
    Norma 202 Norma 202 Norma N202, N-202
    Vihtavuori N140 Viht N140 N140
    Vihtavuori N540 Viht N540 N540
    Accurate Arms 2700 AA-2700 2700, #2700, AA2700
    Ramshot BigGame BigGame
    Hercules/Alliant Reloder 15 RE-15 Re15, RL-15, RX15
    Hodgdon H380 H380 H-380
    Winchester 760 760 WW 760, W-W 760, Win 760
    Hodgdon H414 H414 H-414
    Vihtavuori N150 Viht N150 N150
    Vihtavuori N550 Viht N550 N550
    Accurate Arms XMR-4350 XMR-4350 AA-4350
    IMR 4350 IMR-4350 4350
    Hodgdon H4350 H4350 H-4350
    Hodgdon H4350 Extreme H4350 EXT
    Norma 204 Norma 204 Norma N-204, N-204
    Hercules/Alliant Reloder 19 RE-19 Re19, RL-19, RX19
    Vihtavuori N160 Viht N160 N160
    Vihtavuori N560 Viht N560 N560
    IMR 4831 IMR-4831
    Accurate Arms XMR-3100 XMR-3100 3100, AA-3100
    Winchester Magnum Rifle WMR Win WMR
    Hodgdon H4831SC H4831SC
    Hodgdon H4831* H4831 H-4831, 4831*
    Norma MRP MRP Norma MRP, Magnum Rifle Powder
    Hodgdon H450 H450
    Accurate Arms MagPro MagPro AA MagPro
    Vihtavuori N165 Viht N165 N165
    Hercules/Alliant Reloder 22 RE-22 Re22, RL-22, RX22
    Winchester WXR WXR
    IMR 7828 IMR 7828 7828
    Accurate Arms 8700 AA-8700 8700
    Hodgdon H1000 H1000 H-1000
    Ramshot Magnum (formerly BigBoy) Magnum
    Alliant Reloader 25 RE-25
    Hodgdon Retumbo Retumbo
    Hodgdon H870 H870 H-870
    Vihtavuori N170 Viht N170 N170
    Vihtavouri 24N41 Viht 24N41 24N41
    Hodgdon 50 BMG 50 BMG
    Vihtavuori 20N29 Viht 20N29 20N29

    AL-8 This is the original Alcan AL-8 as was sold during the 1960's and '70s. A flake powder which can be also loaded using Hercules (Alliant) Blue Dot data (begin with starting loads). This is new powder.
    IMR4475 Original application was U.S. 7.62mm NATO (.308) Ball M80. Was approved as a substitute for WC846. IMR4475 is an extruded powder which has a burning rate similar to IMR3031.
    IMR4895 Original application is U.S. .30 Cal Ball M2, AP M2, Tracer M25, and Match M72. THE powder of choice for M1 Garands. An extruded powder which can be loaded using IMR4895 data. This final lot I have came from 1972 loaded Tracer M25 ammo.
    WC680(n) Original application is for the 7.62x39mm "AK-47" round. This is a ball powder, which can be loaded using AA1680 data.
    WC820 Orignal application is for the U.S. Cal. .30 Carbine Ball M1 round. This lot loads at 13.5gr with 110gr FMJ projectile. This is a ball powder which can be loaded using Accurate Arms #9 (AA#9) data.
    WC820(n) Orignal application is for the U.S. Cal. .30 Carbine Ball M1 round. This lot loads at 14gr with 110gr FMJ projectile. This is a ball powder which can be loaded using Accurate Arms #9 (AA#9) data.
    WC820(f) This is an unusual lot of WC820 that was rejected for use in .30 Carbine ammunition, due to the too fast burning rate. This is a ball powder which can be loaded using Hodgdon HS7 data or Win571 data.
    WC820(f) lot #47321 is more like H110 than AA #9.
    WC844 Original application is U.S. 5.56mm NATO Ball M193 (55gr) & M855 (62gr), plus Tracer M196 & M856. Typical 55gr load is 26gr, and 62gr load is 25gr. A ball powder which can be loaded using Hodgdon H335 data.
    WC846 Original application is U.S. 7.62mm NATO Ball M80 and Tracer M62, typically loaded around 44-45 grains. This is a ball powder which can be loaded using Hodgdon BL-C(2) data.
    WC850 Same as H-380. Assoc. w/ chamber ringing. Do not use loads w/ more than 10% air sapce.
    WC852 Sold as H-414. Burning rate similar to WW760.
    WW760BR Older version of WW760. Also sold as H-414.
    WC852(s) lot #47287 is more like RL-19/H4831.
    WC860 Original application is U.S. .50 Cal. BMG ammo, used for the Ball M33 and API M8 projectile. A ball powder which can be loaded using Hodgdon H870 or AA8700 data.
    WC872(n) Original application is U.S. 20mm Vulcan ammo. A ball powder which can be loaded using Hodgdon H870 or AA8700 data. _________

    Good Luck