Forums
New posts
Search forums
What's new
Articles
Latest reviews
Author list
Classifieds
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles and first posts only
Search titles only
By:
New posts
Search forums
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Forums
Chatting and General Stuff
General Discussion
Right Out Of The Box----
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Trickymissfit" data-source="post: 762332" data-attributes="member: 25383"><p>I've only seen the heavyduty powerpacks torn down, and they don't market them over here. We did some power pack work for them and Mitubishi as well as a couple others from that area. The real weak area in most all Asian companys is gear development and spline processes. I don't like the steel they use on their main shafts like the others as it was developed to use in a compressive state. It's plenty strong enough but has a weaker granular structure after heat treating. Then when you cut the splines (which is a no no) the create a weak point. What amazes me about Japanese companies is that they do produce some fairly decient gear cutting equipment and gear grinding equipment, but don't use it! The spline on the input is one of the weakest points of any drive trane, and the processes are very closely guarded. All I'll tell you is that the steel used in some domestic drive tranes is as good as money can buy, and far better than most of the others (but a little more expensive at about 25%). If the Japanese used the spline development process used by some others, they could cut their cost of that part 33% and end up with a part that's probably 30% stronger. Gears are interesting. For some odd reason they do shave critical gears, but don't spend a lot of time getting the processes right. The full sized Nissan did a better job at it than Toyota if that matters much. (I don't know what processes they went with on the new full sized truck design, but know exactly who processed it) I look for their new truck to use a ZF design, or maybe even Asian (company) The real issue here is that the consumer is having to pay for a fix that he shouldn't have to if the process and design were correct (Mercedes Benze is a fine example). The other issue is that all foriegn corporations use standard JIC gear profiles, and they have long been obsolite (I think the last ones were the old Muncie four speed and the Ford Rock Crusher gear boxes.). These gear profiles are noisey and don't carry as much of a load as newer designs do. Plus have a higher wear factor number. The average Joe won't know much of a difference, but a guy that uses them really hard will. I liked the full sized Nissan trucks for they way they went about designing them (well I still hate their grill work). Gear design has come a long way over the last twenty five years or so, and the better companies develope their own profiles. But cutting them is another story.</p><p> </p><p>As a side not, CAP gear grinding is kinda like the standard in the aircraft industry. Very fast and very accurate. Kinda used in Germany extensively in the high end auto companies as well. We brought them in for a no bid contract on what we thought would be a half dozen machines. They were allowed to look over the finished product, but never allowed to see the processes. They simply asked us how we managed to cut gears and finish them so close without ever grinding them? Then they simply said they could grind them as close as we finished them, but no better. We showed them the door. The company was fairly new to me, but had heard about them over at Rolls Royce. Was wanting to goto Germany to see what they actually made and how they were made, but never got to go. Germans do make some very nice gear generating equipment, but the hobs have fallen way behind Gleason. Swiss still make the best gear grinding equipment, but they don't do well in high volume production lines.</p><p> </p><p>Lastly, I did a study a few years back on my own. Of all the gears cut in a drive trane, they cut more pinion gears than everything else put together. Also the smallest gear. In 1980 a guy in a cell ran two hobs and two Fellows shapers, plus a shaver and a hone every now and then. He also deburred every gear and cleaned them up for heat treat. He cut five gears every three minutes off the hobs. The fellows cut large bull gears that took close to forty minutes a piece. Needless to say he was busy all the time. He made about $7.75 an hour. That same basic pinion gear now is run in a cell that has five Gleason hobs, a CNC lathe cutting gear blanks, two auto deburr machines and several gear shavers but no hones. He gets three gears off each hob every fifty seconds. All machines are loaded via a robotic gantry system except for the primary input lathe (he simply keeps a chute loaded with stock. That guy now earns about $24 and hour. cuts gears with a deminsional window of less than half of what it was in 1980. The guy in 1980 actually got about 400 gears a shift after changing cutters and a few other things he had to do. The guy now days gets well over 2500 gears a shift and changes cutters at least once a shift on every machine. If you do the math we now have less money in a gear than we had in 1980. So much for an over paid union guy! Wages have little todo with it, it's the work output per hour. </p><p> </p><p>My favorite one is the transmission case. Similar in size to what goes in all the full sized pickup trucks these days (no matter what brand name). In that cell there is one man (or woman) that actually runs eight machine or more depending on the cell's design. Another man does nothing but rebuild tooling for these machines. There is another person who loads and unloads fixture pallots. These machines are fed via robotic cars that travel around in a set pattern. They can cut a case in twenty five minutes complete, but normally run them in a 35 minute cycle as it's easier on the tooling. Prior to that they would have done this on a transfer machine with at least three operators, and three men rebuilding tools. Plus another loading and unloading the line at both ends. Yes we got more cases (about every four to five minutes), but when it was down you were done. The other way will still allow you to run the other seven machines (or more). Cases come out better in the fms system, and the volume pretty well matches what they need in assembly. Cost wise the transfer is a little cheaper, but also harder to assemble adding labor cost to the finish product. In the end you have about forty-five minutes in assembly verses an hour and ten minutes. The folks in assembly have a set period of time per station that they cannot controll unless something is wrong. If he or she dosn't like what they see they simply set off an alarm and an engineer is there in about two minutes to see what's up. </p><p>gary</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Trickymissfit, post: 762332, member: 25383"] I've only seen the heavyduty powerpacks torn down, and they don't market them over here. We did some power pack work for them and Mitubishi as well as a couple others from that area. The real weak area in most all Asian companys is gear development and spline processes. I don't like the steel they use on their main shafts like the others as it was developed to use in a compressive state. It's plenty strong enough but has a weaker granular structure after heat treating. Then when you cut the splines (which is a no no) the create a weak point. What amazes me about Japanese companies is that they do produce some fairly decient gear cutting equipment and gear grinding equipment, but don't use it! The spline on the input is one of the weakest points of any drive trane, and the processes are very closely guarded. All I'll tell you is that the steel used in some domestic drive tranes is as good as money can buy, and far better than most of the others (but a little more expensive at about 25%). If the Japanese used the spline development process used by some others, they could cut their cost of that part 33% and end up with a part that's probably 30% stronger. Gears are interesting. For some odd reason they do shave critical gears, but don't spend a lot of time getting the processes right. The full sized Nissan did a better job at it than Toyota if that matters much. (I don't know what processes they went with on the new full sized truck design, but know exactly who processed it) I look for their new truck to use a ZF design, or maybe even Asian (company) The real issue here is that the consumer is having to pay for a fix that he shouldn't have to if the process and design were correct (Mercedes Benze is a fine example). The other issue is that all foriegn corporations use standard JIC gear profiles, and they have long been obsolite (I think the last ones were the old Muncie four speed and the Ford Rock Crusher gear boxes.). These gear profiles are noisey and don't carry as much of a load as newer designs do. Plus have a higher wear factor number. The average Joe won't know much of a difference, but a guy that uses them really hard will. I liked the full sized Nissan trucks for they way they went about designing them (well I still hate their grill work). Gear design has come a long way over the last twenty five years or so, and the better companies develope their own profiles. But cutting them is another story. As a side not, CAP gear grinding is kinda like the standard in the aircraft industry. Very fast and very accurate. Kinda used in Germany extensively in the high end auto companies as well. We brought them in for a no bid contract on what we thought would be a half dozen machines. They were allowed to look over the finished product, but never allowed to see the processes. They simply asked us how we managed to cut gears and finish them so close without ever grinding them? Then they simply said they could grind them as close as we finished them, but no better. We showed them the door. The company was fairly new to me, but had heard about them over at Rolls Royce. Was wanting to goto Germany to see what they actually made and how they were made, but never got to go. Germans do make some very nice gear generating equipment, but the hobs have fallen way behind Gleason. Swiss still make the best gear grinding equipment, but they don't do well in high volume production lines. Lastly, I did a study a few years back on my own. Of all the gears cut in a drive trane, they cut more pinion gears than everything else put together. Also the smallest gear. In 1980 a guy in a cell ran two hobs and two Fellows shapers, plus a shaver and a hone every now and then. He also deburred every gear and cleaned them up for heat treat. He cut five gears every three minutes off the hobs. The fellows cut large bull gears that took close to forty minutes a piece. Needless to say he was busy all the time. He made about $7.75 an hour. That same basic pinion gear now is run in a cell that has five Gleason hobs, a CNC lathe cutting gear blanks, two auto deburr machines and several gear shavers but no hones. He gets three gears off each hob every fifty seconds. All machines are loaded via a robotic gantry system except for the primary input lathe (he simply keeps a chute loaded with stock. That guy now earns about $24 and hour. cuts gears with a deminsional window of less than half of what it was in 1980. The guy in 1980 actually got about 400 gears a shift after changing cutters and a few other things he had to do. The guy now days gets well over 2500 gears a shift and changes cutters at least once a shift on every machine. If you do the math we now have less money in a gear than we had in 1980. So much for an over paid union guy! Wages have little todo with it, it's the work output per hour. My favorite one is the transmission case. Similar in size to what goes in all the full sized pickup trucks these days (no matter what brand name). In that cell there is one man (or woman) that actually runs eight machine or more depending on the cell's design. Another man does nothing but rebuild tooling for these machines. There is another person who loads and unloads fixture pallots. These machines are fed via robotic cars that travel around in a set pattern. They can cut a case in twenty five minutes complete, but normally run them in a 35 minute cycle as it's easier on the tooling. Prior to that they would have done this on a transfer machine with at least three operators, and three men rebuilding tools. Plus another loading and unloading the line at both ends. Yes we got more cases (about every four to five minutes), but when it was down you were done. The other way will still allow you to run the other seven machines (or more). Cases come out better in the fms system, and the volume pretty well matches what they need in assembly. Cost wise the transfer is a little cheaper, but also harder to assemble adding labor cost to the finish product. In the end you have about forty-five minutes in assembly verses an hour and ten minutes. The folks in assembly have a set period of time per station that they cannot controll unless something is wrong. If he or she dosn't like what they see they simply set off an alarm and an engineer is there in about two minutes to see what's up. gary [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Forums
Chatting and General Stuff
General Discussion
Right Out Of The Box----
Top