Rifle project. 300WBY in Mark V or Vanguard or 300RUM in ??

Discussion in 'Rifles, Bullets, Barrels & Ballistics' started by Sako7STW, Dec 17, 2012.

  1. Sako7STW

    Sako7STW Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    433
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    I have been looking into doing a project gun on a budget. I want a thumbhole/tact style stocked carry rifle in a bigger .30 chambering. I like the shorter deg bolt lift of the Mark V and found a killer deal on a blued one. I would rather go with a stainless but cant afford one in Mark V but can in the Vanguard but the Van only has 24" bbl so would I be better off finding a stainless Remmy in .300 RUM as it would be probably 26". I would also consider a .338RUM but have yet to actually see one. Or would I be just fine going with the blued Mark V?

    This gun will be used for Elk/Mule deer stalking hunting out to 500 yards and will be topped off as of right now I think with the Trijicon 5-20x50 with red triangle sight post. This gun might also end up on a hunt to Alaska or Canada, thus the Stainless VS. Blued concern.
     
  2. Trickymissfit

    Trickymissfit Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,072
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    .300 Weatherby without a second thought! Three times the barrel life alone makes it a winner. Plus they tend to be much more accurate
    gary
     

  3. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,068
    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    I would choose the 300 RUM because of availability and price of components. I also much prefer the Ultra case design. I am going through this process with a 700 action for a 300 RUM build. And the only reason I am going with the 700 is because I have one. Everything is getting replaced, trigger, bolt, pinned recoil lug. Better really to go with a custom action and I would have except I already had the 700 doner. I much prefer the Howa/Vanguard action as you don't have to replace anything and their factory machining is better than the 700's, but they're too short for the RUM and long high BC bullets.

    That said, I have a NIB 300 WBY Sub MOA Vanguard with a factory shot 3 round target group that measures about. 4 MOA that I would be willing to sell you. You could reload bullets like the 180 AB seated a little deep and still load them in the mag box. Definitely plenty of punch at 500 yds plus.

    On the Mark V actions, I was very interested in them a while back but A highly respected and well known smith from this forum steered me away from them. They're a good action but some potential issues. Below is what he messaged me...




    That sounds a little hard for me to believe. Do you have any data for that. I think most would agree that a well cared for 300 RUM will last about 1000 rounds, give or take and well cared for 300 WM about 1500. The WBY is closer to the RUM in case capacity so I figure maybe 1200 rounds?

    As far as accuracy goes, that's more a factor of quality components and smithing than cartridge. A RUM and a WBY made from the same quality parts and built by the same quality smith will probably both shoot very well in the sub 1/2 MOA or better category.
     
  4. Trickymissfit

    Trickymissfit Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,072
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    most guys that have made posts about barrel life are speaking in the 600 round range, and some are much less. .300 Weatherbys are known for a fairly decient barrel life plus the better case design allows them to handle big long bullets much better. Some guys whine about the free bore issue, and most end users never do. But you can get a no free bore chamber reamer just as easy as one with free bore. Accuracey wise, let me simply say that a .300 Ultra Mag is an extremely rare sight at a 1000 yard bench rest shoot, while .300 WBY mags are fairly common.. That ought to tell you something. Now life with these cases begins at 200+ grain bullets, and both are kind of a waste with anything under 180 grains. If the shooter was thinking 180 grain bullets or lighter, I'd be thinking .300 WSM
    gary
     
  5. MontanaRifleman

    MontanaRifleman Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,068
    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    I've got a 300 RUM Sendero and about 500 rounds down the tube so haven't had a chance to burn one yet, but from the research I did before and after I got it, most reports were in the 1000 round range, if cared for. Sure, you can burn one a lot quicker. Now as for the 7mm RUM, I've read about 500-700 rounds.

    The WBY has been around longer than the RUM so I'm guessing that has something to do with seeing more on the bench. Also, at that level you're talking differnces in the hundreths vs tenths. There are similarities between the Bench and LR guys, but there are differences too. For the OP, whatever cartridge he decides to go with, if he gets a quality smith and uses quality parts, he'll get a sub 1/2 MOA rig which will be more accurate than he needs for 500 yds plus.

    I like the 300 WSM too, and shoot 180's out of both the RUM and the WSM, and in fact, that would be my suggestion for a LA Howa and very capable at 500 yds.
     
  6. Sako7STW

    Sako7STW Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    433
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    Thanks for the replies guys. I have read on more than one occasion that the freebore in the Roy's is for increased barrell life? I agree, I have seen several Roy's of various design/size.... factory guns, that easily shoot sub-moa and some shoot well under .5MOA.

    The main reason I was looking at the .300 Roy and RUM is for the fact that you can find ammo for both anywhere it seams. If they have RUM stuff they will for sure have some for the Roy so I consider that a wash and performance is very close when you load the Roy to it's max like the factory does. My concerns was more with which factory rifle would be the better choice and if Stainless is as big of a deal or is it more just in my head that I need stainless?

    MonRif, please PM me with some info on your Roy Van rifle. Very interested.

    I also know the WSM would be a viable choice, but after shooting a STW for all these years, those small cases just dont make me feel all mighty powerful LOL.
     
  7. toddc

    toddc Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,280
    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2005
    I doubt a roy will triple the barrel life of an UM. My 300 I have now is on barrel #5 (I think/dont tell wife) and I usually get 1000+ with no weakness. Most last longer even if a bit raggedy. The big reason Id say UM is belt,shoulder and brass. 338 edge brass necked down is gonna be nice.
     
  8. Lefty7mmstw

    Lefty7mmstw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,280
    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    300 rum all the way; or step back to the 300 win. I can run a 225 at over 3K in my 300rum without even getting close to full steam using 50 bmg type powders. The 300 roy will not come close to full pressure with the stick 50 cal powders so you are at a real dis-advantage to getting your peak pressure up long enough to get the BIG pills flying well.
    I've got around 600 shots on a lh bdl 300 rum that I bought used and the bore is perfect, so don't feed my the line they die at 600 shots come hell or high water. Half of a barrel's life is how you treat it, and if you beat it the thing will die, but if you use some horse sense you can get even a 7rum to 1K. My 7rum started to go at 600 rounds, but it had some very long shot strings at the bench with others shooting it and it decided to carbon foul badly once. Both took a toal on the pipe. I will be more careful with the next one-- if I go there again.
     
  9. Trickymissfit

    Trickymissfit Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,072
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    Just picked up a loading manual, and the hottest load they had with the .300 Ultra and a 220 grain bullet was 2970 fps (the 225 grain would do 3000fps), but also take close to a hundred grains of powder to get there. yet looking in the Hogdon manual it takes about 92 grains of H870 to do the samething in the Weatherby. But lets get back to barrel life and these two rounds.

    Look at the case capacitys of these two rounds and we know both are over bore. But one is grossly overbore! Now look at the neck lengths of these two rounds. Tht Ultra has a .306" neck length under ideal conditions. The Weatherby neck is close to .360" long when you add the radius into the neck length. One has a 30 degree shoulder angle with the turbulance point just inside the throat. The other as a shoulder angle that will compute out to around 45 degrees. The turbulance point is roughly in the middle of the neck. That alone will give the Weatherby a far longer barrel life than the Ultra.

    Overbore rounds are well know to loose accuracey, and also known to be harder on barrels. Longer necks are also well known to promote longer barrel life. Steeper shoulder angles tend to move the T.P. further back towards the shoulder if the neck is long enough. T.P.'s that are in the throat will always give short barrel life. Nature of the design. Mike Walker probably had little if anything todo with this design. P.O. Ackley did nice nice essays on this subject alone.

    Taking a look inside the Hornaday manual, and looking at 220 grain bullets (I know they are round nosed). One sees that the Ultra does 3000 fps, but the Weatherby is actually very similar. Then we drop down to the .308 Norma Mag. The first two rounds were checked out in 26" barrel lengths. The .308 Norma used a 24" barrel length, and they got 2800fps using 73 grains of powder. That's a way better round.
    gary
     
  10. Lefty7mmstw

    Lefty7mmstw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,280
    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    867, 870, and 872 leave a lot to be desired when using them in big rounds-they are terribly squirrely and don't play as well when loaded down as 5010, 50bmg, and rl50 do. We are at 102 grains of rl50 with 225's in the rum and pushing 3000 fps with mild pressures. I'm working on rl33 with the rum and expect 3100fps since I can actually get to top pressures with it.
    The 300 roy is usually given a 26" pipe when put in the reloading manual, but the 300 rum is often given short thrift with a 24" pipe. That's the ONLY reason they even compare in the manuals. The roy is barely faster than the 300 win in the same barrel length. I've laughed at quite a few roys when they shoot them over my oehler-- they sometimes can't even equal a 300win.
    I don't hate the roy-- far from it. But people put it up to be this 30 cal panacea and it just doesn't add up cost wise to own one. Buy/build a 300 rum or 300 win and forget about it.
     
  11. Trickymissfit

    Trickymissfit Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,072
    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2010
    all the manuals but one I have list the 300 ultra in a 26" barrel. My Hogdon manual dosn't list the .300 ultra, so I only used the .300 WBY data out of it. The AA manual is 24", and it's still right up there. The ideal powder for the Weatherby is 3100, but it's not being produced anymore. Either way, I'll always take the Weatherby over the Ultra mag as it's just simply better. The winningest 30 caliber in 1000 yard shooting is probably the .300 Ackley, and that's nothing but an 8mm mag necked down to 30 caliber. Still of the ones I listed, I like the .308 Norma best
    gary
     
  12. Sako7STW

    Sako7STW Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    433
    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2004
    There is no way in you know where that a 300 windbag is in the same league as a Roy. Thats like saying a 7mm-08 is in the same league as a 7mmSTW. Ummm no.

    Anyways, BTTT as I am still hop[ing to hear more opinions on the RIFLES and not so much about the loadings. I think both the Roy and the RUM are superior loadings and would be more than tickled with either. Truth be known, if I could, it would 30-378 all day long but funds simply will not let that happen.
     
  13. Lefty7mmstw

    Lefty7mmstw Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,280
    Joined:
    May 13, 2012
    I used to have a friend with two different mk 5's in roy. They weren't any faster over the chrono than good 300 winni loads(I've had 3 different 300 win's). The roy may beat the win by 2-5% with heavier pills. Go to the rum if you want to go heavy though as it's better, but it really only does gain enough to care at all with the heavier bullets.
    I'm not a vanguard fan, but I hear they are better than garbage nowadays. They weren't worth a crap at all years ago when I had one for a whopping week; I dumped it like a hot potato. I've never had enough time on a mk5 myself to care one way or another.