Rem.XCR Tactical Compact .308 for long range hunting?

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by zee1978, Mar 25, 2011.

  1. zee1978

    zee1978 Member

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    I would like to own a rifle what I can use long range hunting.
    More I read about it,the more confused I got.

    Let say the barrel. Many people say,longer is better for better accuracy.
    Many people say it doesn't really make a different if you have a 20" or 26".
    Than the weight of the barrel.
    If you using it only for hunting then you probably going to shoot one or
    two shoots. So why are heavy barrel on most of the long range hunting rifle?
    Like Sendero.
    Would it make any different to buy the remington XCR or the Sendero
    other than the Sendero has more weight and more expensive.
    I have a Rem.XCR tactical compact .308 caliber.
    I love how accurate this rifle is,but my friend has a Remington XCR which is like
    close to two pound lighter than my rifle.
    Do I really need that extra weight to make a nice clean kill
    let's say 500yards? or 900yards?

    Than accuracy.
    I went to see a gunsmith and I told him to build me a better rifle the
    one I have.
    He said he can build me a rifle for $3000-$3500can ,but its not gonna be a better
    than my XCR tactical compact.
    I ask him about the .308 power out on 1000yards.
    He said if you accurate the .308 will do it.
    He said I should just keep the rifle I have,and buy bullets for that money,
    and practice.

    My questions,can I change the barrel to a lighter barrel?
    or just buy a bigger cal.rifle like 7mm rem mag.
     
  2. ClickMonkey

    ClickMonkey Member

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    It really depends on where the weight is. The barrel is not the only thing that adds weight to a rifle, think about stocks, scopes, mounts, and accessories and the weight they add to a build. Also, more than the weight of the barrel, the most important thing about weight is its distribution. On an AR-15 for example, a well-balanced bull-barreled rifle can feel as light as a carbine if done correctly. If it is not, it will feel like a 20 lb lead weight is hanging off the muzzle end. Weight distribution has, in my opinion, a greater impact on perceived weight than the actual, clinical weight of the weapon. So no, you don't need an ungodly heavy weapon to make a kill at those ranges. You also don't need a rifle to feel 30 lbs muzzle heavy to be effective in competition.

    That depends on how you look at it. for a caliber with a low muzzle velocity and a parabolic trajectory (exaggerated bullet drop), a long barrel can be beneficial to long range accuracy. From a .308 winchester with a 24" barrel, a specific load with even 10 fps deviation of muzzle velocity can equate to a difference of 4" in the point of impact at 1000 yards. So, at 1000 yards with this rifle, the smallest group you can logically print is 4". A longer barrel equals more muzzle velocity, which equates to a flatter trajectory and less of the aforementioned deviation. This is only of interest when ranges outside what is considered "effective" are necessary. This can also be remedied through load consistency if you are a handloader, or stepping up to a magnum caliber in order to achieve a flat trajectory. Additionally, the extra muzzle velocity reduces the flight time of the bullet, reducing its exposure to wind and other environmental effects. This can help with wind bucking and flight time, essential when engaging moving targets...:D. This is the same reason people do not use subsonic bullets past a couple hundred yards. That, and most people's scopes do not have enough adjustment range to even use them past 300 yards. And the fact that they can barely even punch through paper at that range.
    from Chuck Hawks himself; "Heavy barrels take longer to heat-up, thus maintaining good accuracy for more shots. They are also usually more consistent in the way they vibrate as a bullet passes down their length, which is very important for good accuracy. They resist outside bending forces, like changes in forearm pressure or pressure from a sling pulling the forearm against one side of the barrel, better than light barrels. They are less sensitive to how they are bedded in the stock. Their weight (within reason) makes it easier to hold the rifle steady. For all of these reasons, heavy barrels are generally more accurate than lighter barrels."

    My advice would be to go with something like a sendero in a large magnum caliber (7mm Rem Mag at least) if you really want to shoot effectively at 1000 yards frequently. If you don't, then stay with what you have, it is capable of most everything else you could do with a sendero.

    Anyway, my rant is over now... :D

    Hope this helped
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2011

  3. zee1978

    zee1978 Member

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    Thank you so much for your help!
    Do you thing a sendero is a good rifle?
    What would be the best rifle for hunting,
    if your buget is $3000?
    Thank you again!!!
     
  4. liltank

    liltank Well-Known Member

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    There are a lot of Sendero fans on this sight. I would say by the numbers it is one of the most popular expensive model Remington's used. They come with H-S stocks (from my understanding in other conversations), pillar bedding or an aluminum bedding block, and a trigger that can be set quite nicely by somebody that knows what they are doing. If your smith said he can build a $3000 to $3500 rifle that doesn't shoot any better than an XCR... then find another smith.

    There is a reason people purchase custom actions and components to build top quality, excellent performing rifles. Starting with a Remmy clone action or of someone's own design, are generally stronger than any factory made action and held to tighter tolerances. For 3G's you could get yourself a custom action, barrel, recoil lug, bolt handle, and stock that I can almost gaurantee it will out shoot an XCR. Play your money right, and you could possibly cover the cost of scope mount, rings, and scope for your total amount.

    Tank
     
  5. zee1978

    zee1978 Member

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    Thank you for your reply.
    I gonna talk with an other gunsmith:)

    Thank you
     
  6. liltank

    liltank Well-Known Member

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    We have a bunch of good smiths on this site. Look around and ask questions.

    Tank
     
  7. ClickMonkey

    ClickMonkey Member

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    Sorry for the late reply, just got the e-mail saying someone else responded.

    I do think the Sendero is a good rifle. It is a perfect choice for a shooter who wants a viable Long range gun without dropping a ton on a custom rifle or someone that doesn't have the patience or knowledge to build such a rifle. If you do not fall into either of these categories, then a good custom rifle will leave you grinning ear-to-ear and drilling groups you only ever dreamed of doing. For $3000, you can do a heck of a lot better than a Sendero...

    For no-gunsmithing- needed rifles, check out Accuracy international or GA Precision. For a true "Custom" Rifle, read the following paragraph.

    I would start with an action. there are a ton on the market. I believe 6mmBR.com has a pretty comprehensive list of them all on their website. I'd personally take a look at the Borden Alpine and Timberline actions, They are probably the best bang for your buck in the custom action world. They're relatively cheap for an action too, only about $900 if I remember correctly. Then, I'd look at custom barrels; Hart, Krieger, Lilja, Rock Creek, Obermeyer, and Bartlein, whichever one you want. Somebody is almost certainly going to disagree with my choices, but I personally would look carefully at the liljas. Any of the above will net you great results, but I feel that Lilja barrels require the least maintenance (they have less copper fouling than many others), and Dan Lilja has, in my opinion, one of the most profound understandings of what makes a good barrel and an accurate overall weapon. If you look at the equipment lists for major competitions, there is almost always someone using a Lilja barrel. It's up to you though, The rest have merits of a similar nature, depending on what you personally think and value. Now Look up good stocks, namely mcmillan, manners, HS Precision, and Accuracy International if you want a detachable mag system and decide on a caliber. There are so many I'm not going to go in depth on it. Scout out some good glass; Nightforce, Leupold, and Vortex to name a few. If you want to ever use a range-finding reticule or want to use reticule-based holdover, then try to find something in First-Focal Plane rather than second. This means that the reticule will seem to grow smaller or larger on different zoom settings, and the reticule hash marks will be accurate at any range, not just one.

    There is a disclaimer however. There are more steps to building a tack-driver like this, but I feel that these parts contribute most to accuracy and are what you need to focus on when buying a new custom rifle. I do not want to convince you to go one way or another, merely point you in the right direction. Whenever you spend this much on a rifle, you should do as much research as you can on every product you come across, don't take one person's opinion and do whatever they say, look it up and decide for yourself.

    Whatever you decide, you can easily come up with a rifle that will drill groups that your XCR would balk at all day at the range, and be more than accurate enough to take confident shots on game out to ranges that will far exceed what you can do now. I hope you end up with a rifle that will make you as happy as I was with my first custom build.

    Hope I helped more than hindered. :D
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2011
  8. zee1978

    zee1978 Member

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    Now I know what to ask from the gunsmith.
    I'm in Vancouver B.C.,do you think I should find a gunsmith here,I'm not
    sure about shipping from the US.
    I look at the price for the Accuracy International.
    Very expensive.:( 6.000 and up):(
    But the GA precison is much cheaper.
    What would you recomend from GA?
    Just wondering how you would put your rife
    togetter? What you would use?
    Thank you very much for all your help!
     
  9. ClickMonkey

    ClickMonkey Member

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    Accuracy Internationals are slightly over $3000 for their AE model I believe. It also depends on any options you add on, as does the price for a GA precision. People have had good experiences with GA's Rock rifle, though I'd go a different route, personally. If I were to buy a rifle from GA Precision, I'd probably get a base custom rifle in the caliber of your choosing, put it in a Accuracy International 1.5 Chassis for an extra $220, flute the barrel ($150), and install a GA Precision Templar Action ($500). This combo will get you a rifle that is just as good or better than a rock without spending any extra, if you leave out the price of the Templar action. I have no idea about gunsmiths in your area, or the laws pertaining to import/export of firearms or their components between Canada and America, so I can't help you there. I also can't help you for finding a gunsmith to help you build a truly custom rifle either. Last time I built one I used a local gunsmith who has since retired, and I haven't looked around for a long time.

    If I were to put a rifle together now, I'd probably end up going a truly custom route and get what I feel is best, not what someone else thinks is. Also cheaper in the long run. not counting labor costs, you can build a comparable or better rifle doing it yourself than if you bought from a major vendor such as GA. You can build a rifle comparable to the setup I listed above from GA for considerably less. $450 for a contoured barrel-blank in Stainless Steel, $900 for an AICS 1.5 stock with a .300 Win Mag length feeding system (this stock has a built-in trigger guard and detachable box magazine system, so it is actually a pretty good value), $925 for a Borden Timberline action, no bedding necessary on the stock, $230 for a Jewell trigger with a safety, and you have $500 to spend on installation and still come in at $3000 total expenses. That is the route I would go personally. I believe this route you'll be happier with the finished product, seeing it go from individual parts into a rifle that is worthy of some serious envy at the range. But that is my own personal opinion, and I'll leave it up to you to decide for yourself what you really want to do. Like I said, there is a big disclaimer here; do not take my word as gospel and do exactly as I have outlined in this response. I do not and can not know what you will wring the most joy from. your preferences may be radically different than mine when it comes to guns, and I do not wish to pressure you into compromising between us.

    You should know, though, that almost everything to do with custom gun-making takes a really, really, long time to materialize. Think not in terms of weeks, but months from now, quite possibly over a year. But this wait is most definitely worth it, at least in my experience. There is nothing quite like leaving a target full of groups, not a single one over 1/2 MOA, especially using a rifle you built from the ground up. It's like the marine mantra "This is my rifle, there are many like it, but this one is mine." When you custom build any kind of gun, you get that sense of accomplishment and satisfaction that is absent from others. I've built many an AR-15 recently, both for me and my buddies, and there is a lot of confidence that comes from that. It's quite addicting actually... :D.

    Actually, I believe Lilja Barrels can make a gunsmith recommendation for you, not sure if that policy applies to Canada though. Sorry.
     
  10. LRSickle

    LRSickle Well-Known Member

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  11. zee1978

    zee1978 Member

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    ClickMonkey!

    You are really help me a'lot!:)
    Accualy I was looking the GA LR hunter,"Non Typical"its cost $2900
    and if I would have the barrel fluted and maybe but a muzzle break on it?
    What do you think about that rifle?
    I would prefer a custom build rifle,but I don't know any good gunsmith.:(
    What caliber would you say would be the best for hunting?
    I never handload myself but I would like to learn about it,and
    doing it. I was thinking of the 7mm rem mag or 300 win mag.
    What do you think?

    Thank You
     
  12. ClickMonkey

    ClickMonkey Member

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    I don't know about international shipping, but you might be able to send it down here to a gunsmith in the US to build for you.

    On the GAP website, the Non typical is listed with a short action and its caliber is listed as short standard and short mags. That means no 7mm Remington Mag or .300 Win Mag version is available. There are 7mm and .30 caliber short mags out there, but from what I've heard of them, they do not handle heavy bullets very well, which limits their effectiveness at long range. also, the barrel looks to be a somewhat light contour for long range shooting. My personal choice for a caliber would be either a 7mm Rem mag or 7mm weatherby mag. In the Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th edition), The Weatherby has a 200 fps advantage in muzzle velocity for the same amount of powder than the Remington. Looking at the cases firsthand, the case capacity looks essentially the same, but the bullet's bearing surface on the case is absolutely humongous on the weatherby due to its double-radiused neck, a feature all weatherby calibers have. In theory, this could increase the chamber pressures and put more force on the projectile while it is in the chamber and not yet contacting the rifling. This is my only explanation for the 200 fps jump in velocity. so, a weatherby mag with a 175gr bullet will hit a muzzle velocity of 3100 fps according to the handbook for the same amount of powder as the Remington Magnum. If you want to start handloading, this performance increase might be something you want to look into. I'll leave it up to you to decide if the performance jump is worth the cost and availability of quality components. Also, the weatherby and remington mags, since they use almost the same powder charge will theoretically have the same barrel wear, which will be reasonable for a magnum, another important thing to consider. Another thing to mention is that, if you ever feel that handloading is too troublesome or time-consuming, the factory ammo availability of the weatherby is virtually nothing. a 7mm Rem Mag might be better for you in this eventuality.

    The problem with the .300 Winchester Magnum is that the bearing surface that it has on the bullet is detrimentally short, limiting the weight of bullet that the cartridge can handle. a 200 grain bullet is generally accepted to be the ceiling of the win mag. A Sierra 7mm 180gr BTHP matchking has a higher Ballistic Coefficient than the 200gr .30 caliber matchking, and will retain its velocity better, buck wind better and have higher sectional density than said .30 caliber. The problem with going up the scale for .30 calibers is the recoil generated by shooting a 220 or 240gr bullet at 2900-3000 fps, and the availability of these heavier .30 caliber bullets.

    In a custom rifle with a barrel twist rate that can stabilize the 7mm's, I think that they have more than enough long range capability for 1000 yards and beyond. They have a flatter trajectory, lower recoil, higher BC's, and low enough meat damage at close range to be effective in a hunting role at short ranges as well. They are overall, perfect for the kind of shooting I do.

    If you put a muzzle brake on it, I would personally go with an American Precision Arms Fat Bastard Muzzle Brake (see link below).

    American Precision Arms

    This thing was designed with calibers up to the .338 Lapua in mind. I think it will do the best job of reducing recoil on the market at this point, without being ridiculously huge and cumbersome. Do of course get it professionally installed, either while the rifle's at GAP or afterwards once you find a good smith.

    I would definitely get the barrel fluted. It will reduce weight slightly without reducing barrel rigidity, or adversely affecting harmonics, and cool the barrel faster in between shots. I don't see any reason not to get the barrel fluted.

    Also worth mentioning is stock choice concerning these calibers. The 7mm Weatherby and Remington Magnums will fit into virtually any stock or trigger guard that has a 300 win mag length feeding system, according to some experts I've consulted on the matter, when I was outlining the plan I had for my next custom rifle and asking their advice (surprise! it's going to be a 7mm Weatherby).

    Sorry for the rant(s)... :D