recoil v accuracy

Discussion in 'Long Range Hunting & Shooting' started by nwolf, Jul 3, 2011.

  1. nwolf

    nwolf Well-Known Member

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    How much efect can rocoil have on a rifles accuracy not counting a flinch. I ask becouse I have a .300 win mag that shoots anywhere from 1 to 3moa at 100 yards. Its a howa 1500 with a glass and pillar bedded richards microfit tac driver stock.

    Although it kicks pretty hard I dont have a flinch. It has a tendency to miss a feed if I cycle it fast, so I do that on purpose without looking. I do it just to make sure I havnt developed a flinch. If it dry fires and I jump, or close my eyes then I know Ive got work to do.

    My problem is that when it settles after the shot Im not looking at the target any more and it isnt always pointing the same direction after the shot. What can I do to help with my follow through.

    I should add that when I shoot prone the rifle is a bit more well behaved except that it jumps on the bipod and twists in my hand.
     
  2. RFtinkerer

    RFtinkerer Well-Known Member

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    Does it string vertically or horizontally, or it is just random? I ask because I just got a Savage Bear Hunter in 300 WM and first trip to the range I got a 2" horizontal string. The vertical dispersion was less than an inch, so I know the rifle's better than that.

    In fact, I recently posted in Snipers Hide in the Basic Marksmanship forum about the horizontal stringing--if you care to, look it up there, there are some good replies.

    Horizontal Stringing - Sniper's Hide Forums

    Basically, get off the bipod and onto bags, work up a consistent NPA and follow-through on recoil. I'm a pretty good shot with my .22, but I need to work on consistency with the heavy recoil of the 300 WM. Of course, it's that much more fun to shoot as well. :D Hopefully a deer or two won't think so this November...
     

  3. SBruce

    SBruce Well-Known Member

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    I believe harder recoiling rifles are just a little tougher to shoot well. They probably take more practice to get to shoot well also.

    Darrell Holland says that the bullet is still inside the barrel for the first few fractions of an inch of recoil. That being said, the recoil path needs to stay consistant for good groups. We don't want to be influencing the path differently from one shot to the next.

    I believe heavier rifles help with groups. Reasoning is that they don't begin to move as soon as light ones do, and they don't move as far as light ones do. Powder charge/bullet weight/velocity being equal of course.

    In one of David Tubbs' videos, he comments on shooting light weight heavy recoiling guns from the bench. He says that he believes that holding onto the gun, especially the forend, helps with getting good groups because it helps ensure the rifle is jumping/recoiling less that way. For a guy like him that shoots both hands on the rifle quite often, he probably is pretty sensitive about how he is holding the forend too.

    FWIW, the most amazing groups I've ever shot were basically free recoil, I wasn't influencing the recoil action at all, because the only part of the rifle I was touching at the shot was the trigger. These were 22 and 24 calibers that were 9-17 lbs weight though. This isn't possible with hard kickers obviously, so I guess the answer with hard kickers is to hold the gun, but hold it as consistant at possible.?
     
  4. nwolf

    nwolf Well-Known Member

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    From the bench there is no chance of me holding it still. I am very small and it pushes me back ALOT. From prone I dont move at all but still the rifle jumps and I cant hold it down.
     
  5. brentc

    brentc Well-Known Member

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    A muzzle brake is always an option to tame it down a little.
     
  6. Buffalobob

    Buffalobob Writers Guild

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    Some rifles do not like hard sand bags under the fore end. Try placing a folded towel over the front sandbags or rest and see if the groups decrease.What it sounds like is inconsistent placement on the front bag and inconsistent technique.

    If it shoots better from a bipod then go that route.


    Could be lots of contributing factors such as the rifle does not like the load you are using or the scope is not adjusted for parallax.
     
  7. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    Recoil occurs as the bullet exits the barrel because of the "equal and opposite" reaction. Essentially the expulsion of the bullet and hot gasses turns your barrel into something of a rocket moving in the opposite direction of the force which creates the recoil.

    There is a small fraciton of gas which escapes ahead of the round, but not enough to cause a significant recoil effect.

    As long as the bullet and gases remain in the barrel and chamber, there really is no movement of the rifle in the opposite direction.

    In all likelihood your problem is your own reaction you just don't realize you are flinching.

    As for not remaining on target, that is natural. Without a good muzzle brake you cannot.

    Installing a good muzzle brake and good recoil reducing pad will do you a lot of good.

    If it still won't shoot better than 1MOA it's a matter of skill or your rifle not liking the load providing that is, it's been properly accurized.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2011
  8. SBruce

    SBruce Well-Known Member

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    When you dry fire, do the crosshairs move when the pin falls? If so, the scope maybe is questionable, IMO.

    If you're shooting with a light hold, and the original orientation (rifle in relation to body or bags) is different for each shot, then it will certainly be pointed in a different direction after each shot. Even with orientation being close to perfect, the point of aim will usually be somewhat different after recoil. I see this even with small caliber rifles shooting free recoil. Big Boomers are probably more apt to show this.

    Jumping on the bipod and twisting is normal IMO. The faster rifling twist we have, the more torque is transfered back to the rifle. Just a suggestion, but after the shot; you might try picking up the forend and make sure there's no additional torque trapped in the bipod for the next shot. There's a reason that benchrest shooters like wide flat bottom forends, it's to alleviate some of that torque and help them return the gun closer to original orientation from shot to shot.

    As others have mentioned; a good muzzle brake helps reduce alot of gun movement, but they increase the noise level too. 6's maybe, take your pick.
     
  9. budlight

    budlight Well-Known Member

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    This not a fight, but the truth is when the bullet move its first micron of an inch it has created some equal and opposite reaction. With the reaction of recoil peaking at or near max powder caused PSI. AS Darrel Holland implied. felt recoil occures just before the bullet leaves the barrel. That is because of the few thousants of second it takes for the bullet to travel the length of the barrel and cause the rifle to move backwards.

    To the poster what cured all my flinching was to shoot really big caliber rifles. Just beg, borrow or steal a 416 or 458 magnum with some max loaded shells. Pop off a 2-3 rounds and it will make your 300 seem like a kids gun. I have a shoting jacket with a built in recoil pad. It was intended for 12 guage duck hunting. But it is also good with big magnums.

    Trigger weight can really help. My latest rifle is set to 1.5 lbs and it really groups good at under 2.4 inch 10 shot groups @ 400 yards bench resting.

    Big guns I use my left hand gripping over the top of the barrel out in front of the scope and pull the rifle against my should for bench rest shooting. Free stand is always a sling for triagulation and let my body rock back with the recoil. I'm only 170 pounds

    Turn your scope up and shoot at small dot targets. When you breath out and hold you should actually see your cross hairs bounce with your heart beat. time your trigger pull to right after the jump when the cross hairs are recentered and steady. The trigger is not instant so it is something you have to learn. Don't fill you magazine. Take your time one shot at a time. If its not good...... stop ..... shut your eyes..... count a few heart beats..... open your eyes and center the cross hairs.

    This might sound odd, But I shoot better when I can't see the holes in the paper. That way you are not thinking about correcting the placement of the next shot. In the military You would fire off say 30 rounds after the radio back in sight in shots. Then your all standing around talking to your buddies about what you thought you did. When the radio came back on with the scores for each target. So the carry over to today is I like shooting at 200 min yards after the closer in rough site in. Don't chase your holes in the paper
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2011
  10. Greyfox

    Greyfox Well-Known Member

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    The key to accuracy with heavy recoiling rifles given the inherent accuracy is there and the basic shooting shooting skips are constant is to focus on two factors....work on the rifle to keep muzzle flip to a minimum and what ever shooting position your in, do it exactly the same every time with as firm a hold as possible without overdoing it to cause fatigue . I take full advantage with my big guns with straight stocks, high combs, good recoil pads, a good muzzle brake, and as much practical weight as possible. I will practice both live and dry fire until cheek weld and hold are burned in and I can concentrate on sight picture and trigger control. I have seen a big difference in my results with my 300 wby and 375 H&H.
     
  11. nwolf

    nwolf Well-Known Member

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    A tight hold on the rifle should help? I hold tight to my shoulder but I keep my left hand under the but.
     
  12. RDM416

    RDM416 Well-Known Member

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    Ok guys, lets do a little math: Two assumptions, we are shooting 3000 fps using a 26" barrel.

    3000 FPS X 12 = 36000 IPS (inches per second)

    26 (barrel length) / 36000 IPS = .00072222

    So at 3000 fps it will take a bullet .0007222 seconds to travel the length of a 26" barrel.

    Obviously this does not take into account the acceleration factor since the bullet is starting at "0".

    It should be much less than this, but just to account for acceleration time lets say it takes 3 X that time for the bullet to travel the length of the barrel.

    .0007222 X 3 = .002166 seconds.

    For the more technical of you out there I understand this math is not complete, but it is close enough for us to get an idea of how little time a bullet stays in the barrel after ignition.

    Again, not going into more math that would get complex, but just consider, you have a 180 grain bullet and a 10 LB rifle. When you factor the speed and weight of the bullet with the mass of the rifle. (large mass moves slow) the bullet has long since left the bore before there is ANY significant movement of the rifle.

    NOW....... I do not even begin to put my shooting experience level up there with Darrell Holland or David Tubb. However, I am an engineer and while for simplicity sake I have taken some liberties with the math, I believe the math says that there is simply not enough time for the recoil to effect the path of the bullet enough for any measurable amount.

    I suspect what you are seeing, and what probably most of us may have thought was recoil related issues have other explanations.

    First of all, even in the best of BR situations our rifle is NEVER "perfectly" still. Second, no matter how much we like to say "I don't flinch" we do. A flinch can be a twitch or a jerk or it can simply be a little extra thumb or palm pressure. That type of "flinch" can be almost impossible to diagnose but can cause very real problems. There are the often overlooked factors of our own reaction time from when we thought we broke the trigger to when we actually did, there is the inherent "lock" time it takes for the trigger / hammer / firing pin to strike, there is the time delay for the initial ignition of the primer........ All these things happen fast, but in real time they take much, much longer to happen than the amount of time the bullet spends in the barrel after ignition.

    Some rifles also tend to be sensitive to how they are held. Tightly, or lose, or if shooting off a bipod or where the front rest is when shooting off a bench......... I suspect much of that has to do with with what I described above of a slight bit of different pressure or twist as you squeeze the trigger, however those things could change the harmonics of stock / action / barrel and induce some amount of POI change. I have certainly experienced the effect myself and have seen it experienced by others. But in conclusion if you are having difficulty getting a hard recoiling rifle to group well, you need to look for other explanations. The recoil is not moving your rifle enough to matter. Maybe if you are a world champion shooter like Tubb, I might cut you a little slack, but in the end math is math........

    I probably stirred up a can of worms on this one, I can take it, bring it on if you disagree:D:D
     
  13. Greyfox

    Greyfox Well-Known Member

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    I don't know about the math but I seem to recall that high speed photography showed the barrel moving 1/8" before the bullet left the barrel. I believe it was a caliber and velocity that was in the range you mention.
     
  14. WildRose

    WildRose Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but that's just incorrect. As long as the bullet is keeping the explosion contained between itself and the chamber/barrel there is not going to be any measurable or felt movement of the weapon.

    The only forces working to push the rifle backward at that point is the force of the bullet pressing on the air ahead of it in the barrel and the tiny fraction of hot gasses that are not contained behind the bullett.

    Once the bullet clears the end of the barrel then in effect the barrel is acting like a rocket motor driving back the rifle in the opposite direction.

    That is why a good muzzle brake is so effective at reducing felt recoil and muzzle flip.