Ramshot Magnum vs. barrel life

Discussion in 'Reloading' started by Vasa, Dec 27, 2005.

  1. Vasa

    Vasa New Member

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    I have read somewhere - I believe that it was on this forum that ball powders such as Ramshot Magnum will burn somewhat "cooler" than extruded powders and thus give an extended barrel life with high-capacity magnum rounds.
    Can somebody verify this or have an opinion about it?

    Vasa
     
  2. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    Ball powders have been said by many to increase barrel life. It may be as much as 10% to 20%.

    However, in my opinion, ball powders have never shot as consistantly accurate as extruded powders.
     

  3. mudstud

    mudstud Active Member

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    Vasa,

    A year ago or two, I had a discussion with one of the engineers at Western Powders in Miles City (sorry, I disremember his name), about this very subject. He assured me that Ramshot ball powders burn at a lower flame temperature than extruded powders, hence longer barrel life.

    Bart,

    While I certainly don't doubt that your experience with ball powders vs. extruded powders is true, in fact, I agree with you! While I haven't had the chance to try Magnum yet myself, reports I've heard about Magnum suggest it is a very accurate powder. One day I will get off my duff and try it out. FWIW.
     
  4. davewilson

    davewilson Well-Known Member

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    i think Bart states it very well when he said "not as consistantly accurate"
     
  5. Ian M

    Ian M Well-Known Member

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    Guys,
    The most consistently accurate ammo that I shoot is made by Black Hills Ammo. They use a lot of Ramshot ball powder. I would suggest that the rifle will make the final determination. I have some rifles that do prefer a stick powder, but some will shoot either with equal accuracy. I sure like loading with Ramshot powders, they meter like water through my progressive presses. Hard to beat Varget in the mighty .308 Winchester tho!
     
  6. Fiftydriver

    Fiftydriver <strong>Official LRH Sponsor</strong>

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    Vasa,

    Please keep in mind one very important aspect to throat life, that being the abrasive action of the powder as it is forced through the throat under high pressure and temperature.

    The frictional coefficent of Ball powder is DRAMATICALLY less then any extruded powder. This is in my opinion, just as significant to increased throat life as lower flame temps. Combining the two and I think this is where you get the 15% longer throat life.

    It is really a two sides system to increasing throat life.

    I also feel the topic of the stick powders being consistanty more accuracy or consistant compared to ball powders has alot to do with the fact that most ball powders are a bit sensitive to temperature changes and as such can cause more of a velocity variation problem compared to stick powders.

    That said, the new ball powders such as Ramshot Magnum are said to be nearly as stable under varying temps as the Hodgdon extreme powders so if that is the case it may dramatically cut this consistancy factor.

    The new US 869 is also reported to be much less temp sensitive then the older style ball powders.

    We will see!!

    Kirby Allen(50)
     
  7. Vasa

    Vasa New Member

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    Thanks everybody for your input to my question.
    I have reloaded for and used a number of magnum rifles over the years but my last one is a 7.21 Firebird (7mm Lazzeroni).
    It shoots well and reaches advertised velocities with IMR7828 and Re25. I also tried WMR. I have access to Ramshot Magnum and will try that next.

    Vasa
     
  8. nighthunter264wm

    nighthunter264wm Well-Known Member

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    Let us know how you like the Ramshot. I've considered buying some, but can't justify it until I get rid of a few more pounds of Hogdons I have in stock.
     
  9. Bart B

    Bart B Well-Known Member

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    Years ago when Oehler came out with their piezio pressure gage system, some folks testing their handloads noticed that ball powders gave a faster initial pressure peak than extruded powders. These peaks were much like those made with any powder ignited by really hot magnum primers. When the same load was primed with a really mild primer (RWS 5341, for example), accuracy was great.

    Some folks believe the reason this happened was bullets pushed into the rifling too fast deformed a bit and therefore were not well balanced. Bullets entering the rifling more gently were not deformed and were very well balanced. Unbalanced bullets don't shoot accurate.

    Makes sense to me......
     
  10. wapiti13

    wapiti13 Well-Known Member

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    Vasa, Note that RamShot is unique in that they highly recommend using standard primers, regardless of the amount of powder and/or burning rate. They tell me that their powder is set up to burn for a longer time and will be more consistent if using a Fed 210, etc. Just some info. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif
     
  11. davewilson

    davewilson Well-Known Member

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    50, my personal opinion is that powder being forced through the throuat has very little to do with throat erosion.and ball powder being significantly less than extruded is also a very small factor.

    most of the throat wear happens while the bullet is getting started,the pressure builds up to 50 or 65k to get the bullet started and while this is happening the pressure is leaking out around the bullet acting like a cutting torch on the throat until the bullet moves far enough to seal the pressure. by now the powder chunks are all at least half burnt and there are no sharp corners or coefficent of friction other than the extruded would be bigger.i'm not so sure the powder isn't completely burnt by the time the bullet has only moved a few inches.
     
  12. wapiti13

    wapiti13 Well-Known Member

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    No. 1 Whitetail, Powder is not all burned up that soon. Otherwise, you would have a muzzleloader and/or a load with pistol powder. The reason we match burning rates to cartridges is to try and get correct burn. Run a QuickLoad program and some powders don't burn up completely even in a long barrel. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
     
  13. davewilson

    davewilson Well-Known Member

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    i don't think the powder chunks burn as long as you think,but let's assume you're right.would you agree that by the time the bullet is fully engraved in the rifling,peak pressure has occured and there are no sharp corners on any grains of powder and basically all chunks of powder going out the neck are very rounded,i don't care what shape they start out as.my point being that there is no difference in throat erosion between ball and extruded powders.
     
  14. ss7mm

    ss7mm Writers Guild

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    no.1 whitetail:

    I would also highly recommend you get QuickLoad as it will show a lot of things that people can't see any other way.

    This is a sample chart of a mild load in 264 Win Mag. It shows % of combustion for barrel length. You can see that all of the powder is not burned up until the bullet has traveled 16"-17". You can play with it and change powders, loads etc. and see that some loads never burn all of the powder in a given barrel length.
    [​IMG]

    If you do the same for chamber pressure vs. bullet travel you will get this. Interesting huh? You can see that in this instance the max chamber pressure doesn't start to drop until the bullet has traveled 3"-4". Looks like, in this instance, the bullet would be into the rifling/barrel a few inches before peak pressure exists. That would mean that the gas burning behind the bullet at peak pressures would be "attacking" the throat.
    [​IMG]